Evidence of meeting #38 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbying.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Thank you, Commissioner.
If I understand correctly, you said that you were in favour of the federal commissioner having more powers, such as the power to make a case, to order an investigation or to impose penalties.
Can you tell us more about the types of powers that could be given to a commissioner that would improve the ability to apply the law?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Lobbyisme Québec
Absolutely.
To start with, there must be a genuine power to investigate, meaning to conduct investigations and come to the conclusion that an infraction has taken place. Then there must be a variety of powers of penalty.
In our case, we can turn to the Directeur des poursuites criminelles et pénales to start criminal proceedings. That is an extremely lengthy and expensive process. In addition, the evidence has to be beyond reasonable doubt. As I understand it, the federal commissioner has the same situation.
In our case, we also have powers to discipline. This means that we can restrict a lobbyist's activities for a certain period. We are also asking for amendments to give us other powers. For example, we are asking for the power to make recommendations and to impose administrative monetary penalties, financial penalties when, for example, activities have been done outside the timelines or were not registered according to the rules.
A wide range of powers is needed, and they can all be given to a commissioner for lobbying, especially an independent one.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Garon.
That completes the first round of questions.
We will start the second round of questions with Mr. Barrett, from for the Conservative Party, for five minutes.
Mr. Barrett, you have the floor. Go ahead.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Commissioner Motherwell, which Ontario enforcement tool has done the most, in your opinion, to improve compliance? Would you view that as a tool that Parliament should adopt for the federal commissioner?
Integrity Commissioner of Ontario, Office of the Integrity Commissioner of Ontario
I don't have many, so there's not much to choose from, really. Perhaps I could give you an overview of what that looks like, and then you can have a sense of where there is a distinct difference between the powers I have under the Lobbyists Registration Act and those that Commissioner Bélanger has.
I have the power to investigate potential non-compliance with the act. I can open an investigation on my own initiative. I can take complaints from anyone in the community. This means that we can take it all in. The act is very specific, though, about what can be done—the procedures and processes that must be followed in the investigation. These are very helpful.
I can also conduct compliance activities to verify information that is contained in individual registrations. I can tell you that we do compliance investigations in the hundreds, easily—many hundreds, 300 or 400—to validate the information that's provided to us.
My office cannot divulge any information on whether there is an investigation or make an investigative report public. The results of investigations are anonymously summarized in the annual reports. I would like to have some changes made to this aspect, because I can only report once a year. I would like to make that a bit more timely so that whatever reporting is permitted by the legislature, it at least can be in a more timely sense, rather than waiting potentially 11 months and 30 days until the next annual report.
If I do find non-compliance with the act, as I said, I can impose a penalty: making public the name of the lobbyist and publishing a description of the non-compliance. I can also prohibit a person found to be non-compliant from lobbying for up to two years.
These are the only penalties that are available to me. Like Commissioner Bélanger, I would like to see a bit more opportunity, because one thing that was emphasized in, I believe, Mr. Jordan's testimony was that a lot of this is about compliance. We want to help people comply with the legislation. Maybe what they don't need is to have their name published on the website. Maybe what they really need is some training.
It would be really helpful to have that in the tool box as well—to insist or require that someone come in for half a day of training so they really understand the breadth and scope of the law and how it applies to the activities they're undertaking. Then they're fully informed. It would be better for us because it would be a better use of resources—education is a key part of a lot of our work—and it would also be better for the individual because then they would fully understand where their breach lies and how they can fix their activities.
Does that help?
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON
It does.
If we look at the potential to expand registration requirements, how do you think we should make sure that the act targets professional lobbying and not legitimate advocacy by charities, non-profits and faith organizations that are acting in the public interest and sometimes would even be volunteer-driven?
Integrity Commissioner of Ontario, Office of the Integrity Commissioner of Ontario
That doesn't mean they're not trying to influence public policy, and as I said in my opening remarks, the key underpinning of lobbyist registration and lobbyist registries is to ensure that there's transparency about who is lobbying whom in government, and about what.
It's also about protecting government decision-making. Some of the organizations that you outlined are very sophisticated organizations that, as you said, have what you may believe is a valid point on influencing public policy.
We're sort of neutral on lobbying content, if you will. We're not really concerned with what you're lobbying about. While we want to make sure that it's clear to the public what you're lobbying about, it's value-neutral to us. If you're lobbying because you want to get a contract for your company or you're lobbying because there's a very important piece of social policy that you would like the government to act on, we treat those the same. That is a fundamental underpinning of the act that I am charged with ensuring is undertaken appropriately here in Ontario.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Commissioner.
We will go to Mr. Saini from the Liberal Party for five minutes.
Go ahead, please.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the two commissioners.
One of the recommendations the federal Commissioner of Lobbying is proposing is immunity from civil and criminal proceedings for herself and for her office. I understand that some of the other federal agencies that are reporting to Parliament already have that.
Commissioner Motherwell, could you give us your viewpoint on that, and could you elaborate on how that would affect your office?
Integrity Commissioner of Ontario, Office of the Integrity Commissioner of Ontario
I have similar immunity under the Members' Integrity Act, but I would suggest that this question be directed to Commissioner Bélanger.
Liberal
Conservative
Conservative
Commissioner of Lobbying, Lobbyisme Québec
Yes. I didn't want to impersonate Ms. Bélanger.
Yes, Quebec legislation actually does contain provisions that prevent a person from suing the commissioner for lobbying as the result of an investigation. That is demonstrably essential in order to preserve the independence of the commissioner, as the person who has to set the law into motion. As my colleague has just said, the commissioners' main role is not to penalize but to ensure compliance and transparency.
But there are penalties too. Investigative powers must be exercised. Therefore, it is absolutely essential to maintain the complete independence of commissioners. There must be protection so that the actions taken by commissioners in fulfilling their functions are protected.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you.
The next question is for Commissioner Motherwell.
How does the referral process to the appropriate authority work under your legislation? Can you provide an example of a referral that was recently made by your office?
Integrity Commissioner of Ontario, Office of the Integrity Commissioner of Ontario
Under the act, I have the power to refer a matter to an appropriate body, such as the OPP. As I mentioned, though, everything we do under the act in an investigative capacity is confidential, so I'm not able to provide any example. I'm sorry.
Liberal
Gurbux Saini Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Can you elaborate on the cooling-off period set out in your respective legislation and on whether any exception exists that would reduce or eliminate that period?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Lobbyisme Québec
I can start, if you like.
Provisions called post-employment rules are included in the Quebec legislation. In our case, the longest period is two years. For example, members of the cabinet and ministers have a prohibition of two years.
As part of the Lobbying Act review, we would like to slightly increase the period or to have a different scale, but not exceeding three years.
If the five-year period that's currently in the federal act achieves its objectives, that's great. Personally, as a regulator, and having discussed the matter with several other former public office holders, I feel that a period of five years is actually long for someone who has just left a position.
The commissioner for lobbying in Quebec has no power to make exceptions. Therefore, I have no ability to adjust the period or to reduce the requirements described in the act.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Commissioner.
Thank you, Mr. Saini.
Mr. Garon, you have the floor for five minutes.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Routhier, as politicians, we are often in a position where we meet business representatives. The same goes for ministers. It's part of our job. I know that there has been a lot of criticism in the past. For example, there has been a lot of media coverage of cocktail-party fundraisers for political parties. Ministers have been present and companies have paid an entrance fee to have access to those ministers.
I would like to know how that is viewed in the Quebec legislation. How does Quebec's legislation on lobbying deal with the kinds of events where people pay a lot of money to get in and to have access to elected officials or ministers?
Do people need to register? Is that lobbying?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Lobbyisme Québec
Actually, the idea of paying for access to a minister or a politician is not at all covered in the Lobbying Transparency and Ethics Act. It would more likely be in the purview of my colleague the Ethics Commissioner.
In Quebec, the question is whether the person who attends the cocktail party is going to try to influence a public office holder's decision. If so, it's potentially a lobbying activity. If the criteria are met, there must be an entry in the lobbyists' registry. It's as simple as that.
The circumstances really have no relevance, much like the way of approaching people and the nature of the communications. What is important is the attempt to influence the decision of a public office holder, but the concept of influence does not seem to exist in the federal legislation.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Earlier, some colleagues were talking about lobbying as the preserve of organizations, military groups and so forth. Sometimes we wonder whether the federal government should set a lower threshold for those groups because it can be complicated to sign up.
You also mentioned that you have simplified the registration process in Quebec. As you have said, to register oneself, to write a mandate can take 15 or 20 minutes. As I understand it, it makes the work of registration easier for groups, or for those who have fewer resources.
Do you think that simplifying the process would be a kind of preliminary stage prior to asking everyone to register, no matter what the size of the group or the extent of the financial resources?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Lobbyisme Québec
That is exactly what we did.
In Quebec, most not-for-profit organizations are not subject to the act. That's not the case federally or for most, if not all, the provinces in Canada. Only some non-profits are subject to it and I know that not-for-profit organizations are very reluctant to register.
Just now, your colleague was talking about legitimate or illegitimate lobbying. My colleague Ms. Motherwell said that it doesn't exist. We do not look at the goals and objectives of the lobbying activities; we are not able to judge whether it is good for the public or not. Whether it's good for the public can be very random anyway.
Nevertheless, I am convinced that a process that sets out to include organizations that may have fewer resources should accommodate them. We have to be able to find ways to target lobbying activities. As my colleague was saying, they are lobbying anyway. You can call it lobbying or representing one's interests. It's the same thing as far as we are concerned.
Bloc
Jean-Denis Garon Bloc Mirabel, QC
Let me ask you an easy question, an empty net for you to shoot at, if you will. I think I already know the answer.
Having an act is all very nice. As we said just now, it may even be a good act. But commissioners need a lot of resources if they are going to be able to apply it. Sometimes, we tend to add resources after crises.
In your opinion, do the commissioners of lobbying in Canada have enough resources, generally speaking?
Do you think they should be given more funding?