Information & Ethics Committee on April 30th, 2026

[Frédéric Pincince]

Again, when it comes down to referring matters to provincial regulators, which I believe the commissioner has mentioned before, it comes down to capacity. When it comes down to her capacity to refer matters, right now she has to report. She has to refer the matter to law enforcement. I'm not an expert, but again, in this situation, if the mechanism to share information at different levels.... I think the act should have to possess some of those mechanisms for the Commissioner of Lobbying to refer matters to some other institutions as opposed to solely law enforcement.

[Fares Al Soud, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

You mentioned earlier that a referral is typically made to you when they have reason to believe there's been a criminal offence. When a referral is typically made from the Commissioner of Lobbying to law enforcement, are they generally timely and sufficient in evidence? What is the fulsome scope of what you see from the Commissioner of Lobbying?

[Frédéric Pincince]

Yes, we've received several referrals from her office in the past years, and, as I've said, we've investigated all of them. I would have to say that the information her office provided was quality information. It was well reasoned and that allowed us to conduct investigations.

Now, the conclusions of our investigations, of course, will sometimes differ, based on the variety of information. Every investigation will be different. It's all based on the information that we can obtain and the means through which we obtain that information. That's why, sometimes, the conclusion may change, based on our capacity to investigate.

[Fares Al Soud, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Al Soud.

Thank you, Inspector.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As far as the power to apply coercive measures is concerned, what happens on your end if the commissioner gets assistance to handle simple cases rather than larger investigations?

Would you support that?

[Frédéric Pincince]

Again, that decision is a matter for this committee, which can make recommendations.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

What is your opinion?

[Frédéric Pincince]

I can see some advantage to this with respect to certain minor infractions. They could be handled more quickly. This would allow the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying to provide more information on cases of minor violations. This could help improve transparency with respect to the information disclosed.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Minor cases could be sanctioned by the commissioner following an investigation, and the RCMP could support her in that process.

Is that correct?

[Frédéric Pincince]

It would fall more under administrative investigations. The purpose of this type of investigation is really to ensure that everyone complies with the act.

In the case of more serious offences where there is clear intent to commit an offence, this type of investigation may be referred to the RCMP.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It's not really about the nature of the cases, and it's not related to my question.

My question is more about how we can avoid working in silos.

How can we support the commissioners? I'm thinking in particular of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner and the Commissioner of Lobbying.

Will you work together when there is an intention to contravene the act by obtaining profits through a trust without recusal?

You can see how this comes full circle. Are you already doing that? Please reassure me. If not, is that a possibility?

[Frédéric Pincince]

Government agencies have a certain degree of independence. Once a criminal investigation has been initiated, we conduct our own investigation. We use some of the information that was initially provided to us. We must be extremely vigilant with respect to that information.

As I said earlier, the commissioner has enforcement powers. She may use them. Some of those powers are not admissible in court.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

If certain commissioners work together as part of a legitimate request, you can investigate an offence that is not limited to failure to register. The offence may have been committed with the intention of contravening the act and going beyond that, for example, to obtain monetary benefits, among other things.

Is that correct?

[Frédéric Pincince]

In some cases, there may be co-operation with other agencies, whether in a regulatory or administrative capacity. If they wish to provide us with information, we have to be extremely vigilant, as I mentioned, because our investigations must be conducted pursuant to the powers conferred by the Criminal Code and in compliance with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. There are therefore certain constraints that we have to respect. We do receive information, which may prove necessary.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

If the act states, in the absence of case law, that there is a correlation between actions taken, anything is possible as long as you respect the established frameworks.

Is that correct?

[Frédéric Pincince]

Yes, we have to take into account case law when it comes to administrative investigations on the criminal side. So there are constraints that we have to respect. We co-operate in accordance with the parameters set out in the act and in the case law.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.

Ms. Gallant, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

How can the public be confident that the RCMP investigates independently, when we plainly saw that former prime minister Justin Trudeau was able to obstruct the investigation into his obstruction of justice with SNC-Lavalin?

[Frédéric Pincince]

The RCMP operates within the framework of the parameters provided to us. We have to follow the laws in place in Canada. We have to follow these processes. There are some mechanisms in place that protect some information, either by way of solicitor-client privilege or by way of parliamentary privilege. We have to operate within those parameters.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

We've observed that the trail of Brookfield's international contracts coincides with the current Prime Minister's international itinerary.

How does the RCMP investigate undocumented lobbying by foreign nationals or undocumented lobbying when the Prime Minister is lobbied while out of country?

[Frédéric Pincince]

Again, for us to launch an investigation, we need to ascertain that the communications were in fact captured by the Lobbying Act. It is a very difficult question. We could speculate quite a bit as to the nature of those communications. Again, we still need to meet the threshold of that evidence. We can't make some inference in terms of location. We would need some evidence to believe those communications took place.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

There is evidence. When the Prime Minister was in China, he signed a strategic partnership with the communist regime there. How would the RCMP investigate the undocumented lobbying that obviously occurred before the Prime Minister left Canada? They didn't decide that they were going to allow 49,000 Chinese-made cars into Canada just during the course of that meeting. Obviously, lobbying had to happen.

[Frédéric Pincince]

Again, I would be speculating. We would need some more information for us to be able to make a determination.