Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 6th, 2025

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes. It's a loophole.

We've seen this here when, in Mr. Trudeau's government, they would bring in individuals from the private sector and ask them to advise cabinet. These individuals are executives with global everything companies. They're able to give this advice. They're not registered meetings. However, they have these private interests that of course are going to be reflected in the advice they provide, and Canadians are completely in the dark about that. It's with chairmen and chief executives. They claimed then that it was of high service to Canada, but it certainly also creates a real problem for Canadians about why the advice is being provided.

[Nancy Bélanger]

Of course, I'm a great believer in transparency. The scenario you're giving me is currently not covered under the Lobbying Act, and it needs to be looked at.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you think the act, in its current form, captures influence-peddling when you have unpaid individuals?

[Nancy Bélanger]

If you're unpaid, the Lobbying Act doesn't currently cover you.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON]

Is it a class of shadow lobbyists?

[Nancy Bélanger]

If you want to give names to it, you can, but I'm not in that business. I'm just telling you the Lobbying Act does not currently apply.

It should be transparent if there's payment involved, but if there's absolutely no payment, it's a requirement now under the Lobbying Act that should be changed—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON]

Pardon the interruption.

What is the situation that we have with these meetings that were listed? Of course, these CEOs are not going to be registered to lobby. They won't have been paid to be there in the capacity of lobbyists. It's the same as when Mr. Carney was the chair of Brookfield. He was brought in unpaid but had these personal interests.

These are shadow lobbyists. It's a massive loophole—the Carney loophole—and we think it needs to be closed.

[Nancy Bélanger]

There have been questions put to my office in relation to consultative committees, for example.

I'm of the view that for certain CEOs, but for their current employment with their corporation or organization, they wouldn't be sitting at that table. I have said to them that they need to be registered. I interpret it when I am aware of it and I see names, and I communicate with them.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Sari, you have six minutes.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for joining us, Ms. Bélanger.

You repeated numerous times that a statutory review of the Lobbying Act is long overdue. My questions will focus on your role, how you see things, meaning your vision in the short to medium term.

Let's talk about change. When it comes to change, there are always two dimensions we want to work on: urgency and importance. Let's start with urgency. In your opinion, what are the most urgent aspects to consider so this legislation reflects current lobbying realities? Around the world, and even here in Canada, we're seeing this role change somewhat. I noticed this in the questions my colleague asked earlier.

[Nancy Bélanger]

It's urgent because the act should have been reviewed in 2017 and we're still waiting. As a result, we lost two opportunities to improve it. That's number one.

However, in my opinion, the most pressing issue is registration-by-default. Organizations and corporations use ambiguous language to claim that they don't engage in lobbying for up to 32 hours. As a result, much lobbying is conducted in a non-transparent manner. This issue should be addressed first. I'm referring to the terms “significant part of the duties” set out in the act.

The second issue that needs to be addressed rapidly is the fact that I'm obligated to send the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, or RCMP, all files that I believe involve an offence. However, not all offences are equal. Unlike my provincial counterparts, I currently have no discretionary power to make them public, require people to undergo training, or impose administrative penalties. Sometimes I'm unable to make breaches and offences public. I find that difficult. It's one of the major challenges.

The third urgent issue that needs to be addressed is the monthly communication reports. Only communications that are oral and arranged in advance must be reported. This means that it's not mandatory to report all meetings with lobbyists at the airport or on the street corner. In my opinion, this is a problem.

Those are the top three urgent issues.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

That's very interesting. You've listed the urgent issues that need to be addressed and, at the same time, you've answered the second question I wanted to ask you about the gaps in the system. You've listed a few of them.

I have worked with public safety organizations in the past. Their objective was always tied to transparency and public trust.

Can those gaps undermine trust and transparency? Even if it's tricky, I'd like you to give a brief response.

[Nancy Bélanger]

Absolutely.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Fine.

We've listed the urgent issues and the gaps.

In your opinion, what legislative adjustments need to be made? Would it involve legislation? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

[Nancy Bélanger]

I know you're going to undertake a study, and I'll be ready to give you my written recommendations once you do if the committee feels that would be useful. However, I can tell you right now that my recommendations will undoubtedly include the registration-by-default of organizations and businesses, monthly communication reports of all discussions, no matter who organizes the meetings, as well as a broader range of sanctions.

That's three recommendations, but I have about twenty in total.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

This leads me to another question.

When any organization wants to implement such changes, particularly legislative changes, the fear—I'm choosing my words carefully—is that the process will become more complicated. I know that we're not studying this now and that you'd need more time to respond to this question, but could this undermine the process or complicate it?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I don't accept the argument that it'll complicate things. It's a small price to pay, a small effort to make for transparency. It takes five minutes to open an account and about 25 minutes to input the data in the registry. It only needs to be done once and then kept up to date.

I don't believe, then, that makes the process more complicated.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I have one minute remaining, so I'll move on to my second question.

I'm a firm believer in education and awareness. I've seen it and done it in many ways throughout my life. You can hear in my voice that I'm a firm believer.

Do you have adequate funding to do this work?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I'd like to have more money. I don't have enough money to do everything I want to do as a priority.

That said, I know there are budget cuts everywhere, and I haven't been affected, so I'm happy about that. Obviously, I'd like more money. We're doing our best with our extremely competent staff. It's an absolute priority.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You have 40 seconds remaining.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I didn't realize I had any time left.

In terms of education and awareness, before coming here, I took a quick look at the European models. Did your office do any studies related to other countries that we could use for inspiration?

As you indicated, an account takes five minutes to open, and so on. You didn't talk about it in the beginning but is there a gap when it comes to educating both legislators and lobbyists?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Please keep your answer extremely brief.

[Nancy Bélanger]

We focus our efforts on awareness. For a small team, we do a lot of it. As for conducting a study on what European countries are doing, no, I don't really have the resources to do that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Thériault for six minutes.