Finance Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2006

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

So the annual cost to the federal government would be $47 million?

[Jack Styan]

Yes.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

And this would then leverage other funds and would make major contributions to the problem?

[Jack Styan]

We've looked at a number of different options, so obviously one could look at an RESP model, one could look at an RRSP model, or something different. At the moment we would favour an RRSP model because we think it provides the greater incentive and the greater recognition for families' contributions, and thus sets up the stronger partnership between families and governments.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to now turn to Mr. Kershaw, if I may, on early childhood learning and child care.

As you know, it was an election issue--our child care agreements with the provinces versus other measures that the government has enacted. Would it be your view that we should, if we had the opportunity, simply bring back those agreements with the provinces; or now that some time has passed, would you say there was a better way to proceed than what we had planned before as a Liberal government?

[Paul Kershaw]

I think our internationally recognized research would confirm that despite the variety of imperfections with the bilateral agreements that had been signed with all of the provinces previously, they nonetheless remain a solid path to return to in order to continue developing the system of regulated services that currently does not exist in Canada and really makes us stand out as an international laggard by comparison. So the answer would be yes.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Patillo, I am a great supporter of all kinds of support to the post-secondary sector, as one who's spent most of his career there, but sometimes you have to make choices. I think it's extremely important that we assist students so that people are not impeded from going to university for reasons of being poor.

What's your impression of the millennium scholarship endowment fund, and would it be your preference that if we do have a certain amount of more money, we build up direct federal scholarships or that we transfer more money to provinces in the hopes that they will do so?

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

You have about 30 seconds to give a response, Mr. Patillo.

[Ian Patillo]

It's hard to criticize the millennium scholarship endowment fund. I can comment later on some of the contentious issues swirling around there, but when the government dedicates hundreds of millions of dollars a year to targeted student financial aid for 10 years, that's something we have to applaud because we want to see more of it.

Previously, government measures for student financial aid have been universal in nature, mostly administered through the tax system, and that's inefficient in terms of ensuring equality of access. So that is the kind of student aid we want to see developed, that's targeted grants.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you, Mr. McCallum.

We continue with Mr. St-Cyr.

Mr. St-Cyr, you no doubt would prefer to use Quebec's first language.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank everyone for having appeared here this morning. I understand your frustration at having only five minutes to make your presentation but I can tell you that all committee members share that frustration: we only have a few minutes to ask you questions.

My first question is for Mr. Patillo.

A number of student associations and educational organizations have told us about the situation in Quebec and the rest of Canada. They are all calling for more funding in order to make postsecondary education more accessible.

I saw in your brief that you put the figure at $4 billion a year. The number that we had seen most often in presentations to the committee is $4.9 billion a year. People are asking for the investment to be brought back up to 1995 levels, before the cuts, taking into account inflation and the increase in the student population. In your brief, you also talked about going back to the levels of 10 years ago. So I would like to know what explains the difference of nearly $1 billion a year between these two figures.

[Ian Patillo]

The discrepancy is just that there's not as wide a consensus as you might believe on the numbers in terms of what was cut 10 years ago, and it's quite a large ask, so I don't think it has to be too specific. The point is that billions and billions of dollars were taken from the post-secondary education system, and as a result, Canada is falling behind other nations in terms of the percentage of GDP that we are spending on tertiary education, and this will have negative impacts on our competitiveness as a nation.

If the government were to enter into the dialogue with the provinces to create a pan-Canadian accord on post-secondary education and restore that dedicated transfer we're asking for, we anticipate that a huge amount of dialogue would take place around that number. So for right now, I don't think it's important that we present it as $4 billion or $5 billion, but say that anywhere in that range is going to do a lot for post-secondary education.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

If I understand correctly, you also want to go back to 1995 level, but you do not exactly know what that figure would be.

[Ian Patillo]

That's correct, yes.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Fine.

As I said earlier, there is a consensus across the country. In Quebec, associations representing students, professors and universities are calling for a dedicated transfer but they are strongly opposed to any national objective or standard, as well to any federal interference in the education field. Moreover, I saw that the student associations from the rest of Canada were all calling for that. I imagine that it corresponds to a need they see.

Would you be prepared to accept the idea that, in the case of Quebec, transfers for education would be provided unconditionally as the Quebec associations are requesting, but that there be national standards that would apply to the other provinces? Do you think that that would be a good solution?

[Ian Patillo]

Yes, I do find that to be an interesting option. In terms of the strings that would be attached, the reason students are asking for this is that when you look at the broad scope of post-secondary education that's happening in different jurisdictions across Canada, it appears rather piecemeal and unfocused, and it's just generally a consensus that Canada would benefit from a national vision there.

If Quebec doesn't want the federal government telling it how exactly to spend its education dollars, I would certainly understand that, but the fear with the transfer is that, like with other transfers for education, such as happens now through the Canada social transfer, provincial governments would not be held to account to spend that money on post-secondary education. So the only string that I think is really important to be attached is that it be dedicated to post-secondary education.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

A little further on in your brief, you talk about financial assistance for students. You say that the financial assistance programs under the Canada Millennium Scholarship Foundation should be broadened and duplicated.

What do you mean by « duplicated »? Are you suggesting that other organizations, programs and scholarships be created, instead of simply investing? In Quebec, for example, the student loan and bursary system is working quite well. It just does not have enough money. Would it not be preferable to invest in what already exists?

Could you explain your views on that?

[Ian Patillo]

I'm not suggesting that the government create multiple foundations to administer student aid throughout the country. I'm suggesting that the Millennium Scholarship Foundation is a good start in terms of targeted grants, but the numbers show that equality of access still is not there. Underrepresented students, low-income students, rural students, and aboriginal students are not attending post-secondary in the numbers that middle- and upper-class students go, and I think that's of concern to Canada.

So the more we can do to give them incentive to go--and to students it's pretty clearly the financial implications of post-secondary education that are the main deterrent there--then that's what we're looking for, really. However, if we choose to administer those grants, that's a dialogue we should be having.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

I am sorry, sir, but your time is up.

We continue with Madam Ablonczy.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you very much. We appreciate all your presentations.

I want to point out that I certainly am very much supportive of investment in Canadian families with children with disabilities. I think such families have a heavy enough burden without the ongoing stress of wondering how a child might be cared for in the future. I certainly appreciate the suggestions you've made and I will be--all of us will be, I think I would speak for all the committee--very strongly supportive of recommending those in our report. So thank you for that.

I also was interested in the brief on mental health and addiction services. It was interesting. I attended a round table in Ottawa last week at the National Arts Centre, and the round table was talking about new research that was being done in using music and the arts in the treatment of mental illness and to enhance mental health. And that was a very eye-opening round table.

I wonder if you could expand briefly on the other strategic investments in mental health that you see coming out of the $97 million that you've recommended be added to the budget.

[Michael Clague]

Yes, thank you, and I will briefly.

One of the significant elements in there is to set up a knowledge exchange network, which we lack now across Canada, to do, among other things, what you were describing at the conference you were recently at, and that is to promote the identification and exchange of information and research in all forms of activities that can assist people in managing and moving out of mental health conditions. Arts and culture are an important part of that. Knowledge exchange is a fundamental basis for all aspects of these programs as well.

We've identified a few other things. The importance of peer support programs has been well documented and established to enable people with mental illness to work together to support each other in what they are doing. There is the importance of looking at the overlap and the research on concurrent disorders between addictions and mental health.

As you know, as you move around the streets of Vancouver it's no surprise that we have many people out there who suffer from concurrent disorders and/or mental health and addictions, who come from all classes and backgrounds. Because we lack this basic infrastructure of support, they're out on the street at the present time. The things that are identified under the $97 million are to provide the information, communication, research, and knowledge exchange that will enable the best possible forms of housing and support services to be put in place.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I appreciate that, and it was very helpful.

Ms. Brown, I was particularly interested in the innovations taking place in digital media. I wonder if you could explain to a regular Canadian who doesn't know a whole lot about this--and it might be me--how will this will benefit the Canadians who are not involved in the technical details but might be end-users?

[Lynda Brown]

Digital media is encompassing our entire lives and will continue to. From how we learn, how health care is delivered, how people are supported with mental illnesses--it's starting to penetrate every aspect of our lives.

Canada has a very proud history of technical innovation, technology development, and storytelling. Our multicultural history has made us world leaders in that. Digital media is really about taking technology innovation and matching it with content to develop products we all use to learn from, to inform ourselves, and to entertain.

It's often invisible to many of us, but increasingly the devices we carry, what we use for business, what's in our home, and what our children are definitely using is all digital media. We're on the brink of a massive change culturally around the world in how we inform, educate, and entertain ourselves, and that's being driven by digital media. While it's transparent and invisible to most people, it's a wave that's about to crash down on the world and fundamentally change the way we all live our lives.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

That's exciting.

I have time for one more, Mr. Chairman. I have a question for the Real Estate Association--for Janet.

I was particularly interested in aboriginal housing. As you know, we did add $300 million in the last budget for aboriginal housing. I don't know if that money has actually flowed, so there's an ability to tell how that's been used, but I was particularly interested in your recommendation that there be a modern alternative to the Indian Act for land ownership and management. I notice this has been an issue for many people. I wonder what kind of research you've done, and if you could expand on some of your ideas for modernizing in this area.