Finance Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2006

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

In your presentation, you compared a daycare system in which parents have a real choice at affordable prices with a system where parents are provided a direct benefit, like the one they have been receiving from the Conservative government for the past few months, which is a taxable amount that parents can spend as they wish. That is the choice that was made. The existing agreements were cancelled.

If you had to go with one or the other of those solutions, which would be the best, in your opinion?

[Paul Kershaw]

Canada's low ranking internationally means the universal child care benefit that was introduced in July 2006 could have a positive gain, if other investments in child care services are not coming out as a cost, because they'll be withdrawn. If you're asking me if it's one or the other--it has to be either/or--then I think international research would say that if you're concerned about human capital, if you're concerned about labour supply, if you're concerned about gender equality, then the child care service route has much more evidence defending it than would sending money directly to parents, particularly if the money is as modest as $100 a month, about $30 of which we tax back. That cannot make the cost of regulated child care services a genuine option, so it doesn't then necessarily help with the labour supply or the gender equality issue. And the human capital issue is much dicier.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you very much.

I would like to ask Mr. Clague a question about mental health services.

I think that your proposal is a very interesting one. I looked through your brief. However, it seems to me that you are not presenting that in the right forum, since health issues are the direct responsibility of the governments of Quebec and the provinces.

Is there an awareness that, with respect to investment in mental health, not all provinces are necessarily at the same level? I know a bit about this issue, since there is a mental health hospital, Douglas Hospital, in my riding in Montreal. In your brief, you even go so far as to propose how funding should be allocated among the various initiatives.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Your time has expired.

We continue with Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Cunningham, in one of the points you made with respect to aboriginal housing, I think you mentioned a results-oriented conference. Could you expand on that in terms of what its principles would be in terms of organizing it, and what you would expect the results to be in terms of driving it forward?

[Janet Cunningham]

I think I'm going to have to refer you to a brief that came from CREA. We'll make sure you have a copy of it; it will outline that to you.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Okay, thanks.

One of the other questions I had is related a little bit to Mr. Clague. It is about our ability to fund the recommendations you've made with respect to mental health and the relationship between funding and delivering a service. My spouse is a mental health provider in terms of service, so she'd be pretty upset if I didn't take a little bit of time to ask about that.

You mentioned that based on the Kirby-Keon report, an increase in the excise tax may be a way to do that. Maybe you can expand on that a little, because one of the issues we faced from a budget perspective--especially from a local Canadian perspective--is that we actually offered a cut in the excise tax to winemakers in the country who are taking grapes that have been grown here and turning them into wine. There's a little bit of a conflict there, and I wondered how you measured the two together.

[Michael Clague]

Well, I'm not the expert in terms of.... If your question is looking at trade-offs within the spirits, wine, and liquor field in terms of excise tax, I couldn't respond to it. I think the main point is that it's discretionary spending when Canadians choose to drink one thing or another, and since it hasn't been taxed since 1986, it's the most obvious area to look at for an increase in the excise tax. I'm not capable of talking about the implications of the wine industry, for instance.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thanks. I appreciate the honesty of the answer.

One of the things we did in terms of announcements this year was allocate $800 million to affordable housing. I noted the allocation of $224 million for a mental health housing initiative, and it's my view that if the federal government commits that kind of money, we'd be hopeful that the province, and obviously the regional and municipal governments, would commit the same.

The money may actually be there already in terms of being able to provide this service. Is that something your organization would consider? Would you submit an application, or at least put forward a concept, on the fact that the funds already exist and if we get the provinces and municipalities on side to contribute as well--one-third, one-third, and one-third--we may be able to make this a reality much more quickly than by asking for it in the next budget, because we already have the funds in this budget?

[Michael Clague]

It's an interesting idea; again, it's not an area of my expertise, but it's one that deserves inquiry. I think what we need to be cautious about--and I'm speaking extemporaneously here--is this funding we're talking about. We want to make sure it's reaching people with mental health and addictions conditions, and that the applications from existing sources do not take away from the purposes of those funding sources as well, in terms of where they're directed. We know we need access to affordable housing in Canada generally; we, of course, are arguing the case that this has to be directed into this particular population.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

My point would be that in this year's budget there are funds allocated to affordable housing. It has not been exactly determined where that is going to go, so my suggestion is that since the money is there, there is potentially the ability to access it.

[Michael Clague]

Yes, and I don't want to get caught in terms of arguing for taking money away that could be of benefit to other Canadians as well, when a solution that is being proposed, at least by the Kirby-Keon report, is revenue neutral. I think that's where I would leave it at the present time, but I take your point, and it's worth pursuing, because we are indeed anxious to see action as soon as possible on this issue.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Do I have time for another quick question?

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

You have a couple of seconds left.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

I will give those to Mr. Pacetti to conclude.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Mr. Pacetti is next.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Ms. Brown, I thought the idea of the centre for digital media was a great idea, but I'm still not sure how the Government of Canada would help fund your project.

[Lynda Brown]

I'm sorry; I didn't catch all of that question.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

How would you recommend that the Government of Canada fund your project? It's an interesting idea, a centre for digital media, but I think it would be more of a provincial incentive. How would you see the federal government getting involved--through what department or ministry? Do you have any suggestions?

[Lynda Brown]

This a national initiative. It will create tens of thousands of jobs across Canada and will put into place--

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

No, I understand all that; the time is limited. It's a question of how we would fund it. Obviously the government would love to fund all kinds of national initiatives, and there's no disagreement here. It's just a question of how and through what ministry. What would you recommend?

I don't expect an answer right now, but could you look into it? I'm not sure how it could be done.

[Lynda Brown]

We have a very detailed business plan and we truly see it as a partnership among several areas. Our request is to consider the partnership and to work with us in determining how to fund it.

There are some obvious departments it could fall under, but we believe it is an investment in infrastructure, and that's why--

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Okay. We didn't a copy of your brief. We just got a one-pager, so if you could send a copy of the brief over to the clerk, we'd appreciate it. It is just because I don't have much time and I want to ask Mr. Clague a question.

In terms of recent events at Dawson College in Montreal and in the United States, every time there is a tragic event we seem to blame it on mental illness. If the government were to implement your transitional fund and eventually create some type of funding for mental illness, would that help in any respect regarding these tragedies? How are we going to evaluate it? How are we going to say, after 10 years, that this fund was a success?

[Michael Clague]

I think we can be pretty confident of some outcomes with respect to the housing and basket of services, but there's no panacea in this field. What I would point out is that of that $97 million that was asked for earlier for other supports--research and so on--about $50 million was for service reorganization. One of the realities now, almost across the country, is that people resort to hospitals and police departments as the first contact for mental health. How do we get beyond that?

That does suggest it's education, but it's also making a continuum of health support services available that can reach people early on. I want to stress there's no guarantee about that. It's education about signs and indications; it's education about how you can easily access support to deal with them. We need to be paying more attention.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you.