Finance Committee on May 11th, 2010

[Hugh MacDiarmid]

I think the most important response is that the Government of Canada has made it very clear that the ability to support the CANDU fleet on a sustained basis is one of the primary objectives in the restructuring. So it is being made very clear to all concerned that the ongoing support for that fleet is a critical objective that will be maintained throughout the restructuring process.

The second comment I'd make is that the refurbishment and the life extension of reactors is an economically compelling proposition, and that will speak for itself.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

I only have one more minute, and I'd like to get one last question to both of you. I've heard the number of 60,000 jobs directly or indirectly associated with AECL. Whether the number is correct or not, there is some large number of jobs. Is there any kind of analysis being done on job impact or any kind of effort to preserve the jobs of this company? Mr. MacDiarmid, and then Mr. Ivanco.

[Hugh MacDiarmid]

We did commission a study by the Conference Board to look at the economic and job creation impact of different scenarios of the future of CANDU technology, in terms of our ability to generate both domestic and international business opportunities, and I would say that the future of employment in Canada is tied directly to our ability to be successful and compete in the marketplace, as opposed to the debate about what our corporate structure should be. So as long as we're successful in the marketplace, we will preserve those jobs.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Mr. Ivanco.

[Dr. Michael Ivanco]

We haven't done a study. We have just read what other people have done. The kinds of jobs are twofold. There are the jobs we have. There are about 2,000 people in our company. There are the 30,000 jobs in the private sector that essentially exist because we exist as a company, and they're jobs in operations of reactors. Those jobs will grow if we sell new products. If we don't sell new products, those jobs will decline slowly, and I think most of them will disappear eventually.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. McCallum.

Monsieur Paillé, s'il vous plaît.

[Daniel Paillé, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Chairman.

I thank our witnesses for coming to meet us. I'm going to focus my questions on the cooperative movement. In the second round, Ms. Brunelle, the member for Trois-Rivières, can ask questions about AECL since she is much more qualified than I am in that area.

To begin, Mr. Thibault, I would like to ask you two brief questions. You no doubt agree that a specific act would have been a better vehicle than a stew pot bill, an omnibus bill. Were you one of its instigators, or were you consulted about the specific part concerning cooperatives?

[Hubert Thibault]

In fact, everything depends on what the House of Commons wants to do with a legal framework for a cooperative system, particularly for the credit union system. In that sense, my colleagues might perhaps be in a better position to comment on that point.

In my presentation, I referred to the usefulness of the potential creation of a federation or of establishing entities related to systems. One may nevertheless think that it would be more difficult to introduce that kind of thing in an act like by Bank Act.

The large international cooperative groups—whether it be in Europe, Japan, Canada or elsewhere—are normally two-tier organizations: a system of local caisses or local credit unions organized and headed up by a federation and often provided with a security fund, a central caisse and other entities. One can imagine that, if you went that route, a lot of chapters would be added to the current Bank Act.

[Daniel Paillé, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

The House of Commons passes the laws, but it's the government that introduces them. We have the government we have.

You said that might perhaps be an arrangement to use in order to folow your major clients. Desjardins already has operations in Ontario and Manitoba. How does this legislation give Desjardins an additional tool that it doesn't already have?

[Hubert Thibault]

In fact, in the case of the Mouvement Desjardins, the act doesn't afford an additional tool. What I was saying is that, to the extent we would like to establish a support agency for the system of caisses—which provide a lot of the service to individuals and to small and, to a certain degree, medium-size businesses—that would enable us to follow slightly more important clients of corporate Desjardins which have operations across Canada. I'm thinking of those that, in some cases, start out small and become big enough. We would therefore need a slightly more specialized arm that would take over the primary caisse system.

In response to your question, yes, indeed, we have operations in Ontario. There is a system of francophone caisses populaires, which moreover was originally founded by Mr. Desjardins, who was very active in the House of Commons at the time. That system is affiliated with the Mouvement Desjardins. It is a full-fledged member, like any caisse in Quebec, with the same rights as the other Desjardins caisses.

We also have a credit union, which is affiliated with the Fédération des caisses Desjardins. It is the Desjardins Credit Union. It is essentially active in Ontario. There are also affiliation agreements with auxiliary members in Acadia, New Brunswick and Manitoba.

[Daniel Paillé, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

To all intents and purposes, you don't need Canada's cooperative banks or caisses populaires?

[Hubert Thibault]

In fact, what we need is a second-tier arm that will support the Caisses Desjardins, whether they are in Quebec or Ontario, and that will specialize in service to large corporate members. This is a specialized occupation that also requires the ability to act within a single jurisdiction, which would be simpler.

[Daniel Paillé, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

We know that if the banks want to merge, that has to be done at the level of the large corporations, as a result of which Toronto Dominion may not buy a branch of the Royal Bank of Canada. Would the act permit a war over the acquisition of a coop that comes from one province, and would it allow anyone to come and use, acquire or bring in someone from a local caisse populaire into its system, in short to disaffiliate a caisse populaire in order to move it into another system?

[Hubert Thibault]

I would say that's an entirely hypothetical question. When we talk to our colleagues about changes in market share or cooperative businesses, we very rarely discuss competition amongst ourselves. The competitors are the commercial banks. The credit unions, like the Caisses Desjardins, are an important alternative—and should become increasingly important—to a more widespread model which is that of the commercial banks.

I believe that my colleagues will agree that there is not really any competition among us in that regard.

[Daniel Paillé, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

So there is a non-aggression agreement.

[Hubert Thibault]

It's not a non-aggression agreement in that sense. However, let's say that, as regards market share, there's enough room for the credit unions and the Caisses Desjardins to grow for several more years.

[Daniel Paillé, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Wouldn't the fact that we're using the Bank Act be a signal to the banks? I don't want to stroke your ego, but could it be that, at one point, seeing the cooperatives enter the system, the banks might say to themselves that, now that the cooperatives are subject to their act, they would like to have exactly the same opportunities? Since what's good for the goose is good for the gander, since the caisses sell insurance, the banks could do so as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have 30 seconds.

[Hubert Thibault]

We've had occasion in the past to speak out on the banks' demands in that regard, and the Mouvement Desjardins has never come out against them.

For us, the idea of having competition or fair ground rules isn't something we find repugnant, quite the contrary, even though we sometimes hear the banks complain that the fiscal arrangements for the Caisses Desjardins are different from their own. However, we're still waiting for that to be demonstrated.

[Daniel Paillé, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I will cooperate with you, Mr. Chairman, even though I still have 15 seconds left.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Paillé.

Mr. Wallace, go ahead, please.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our guests for being here tonight and waiting until after the vote.

Mr. Thibault, just to be clear, you started your conversation with us--and I might be losing a little in the translation--by saying you were in favour or supportive of us moving forward on this as it is in Bill C-9. Is that correct?

[Hubert Thibault]

Yes, absolutely, that is correct. We see it as a good first step in answering the demands and requests of particularly the networks of credit unions of English Canada, and in that sense, we salute this initiative.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Okay. I just found out from my colleague behind me that Mr. Desjardins was a Conservative member of Parliament from Quebec, a very good guy.

[Hubert Thibault]

In fact, his brother was.