Finance Committee on May 5th, 2015

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you very much. I'll begin, and then Mr. Rankin will take it from there.

I have a question with regard to the issue of the cost of individual attacks not being that significant. From the perspective of the financing of terrorism, if in fact terrorism financing costs have gone down so significantly, that would seem to indicate the potential for a proliferation of such attacks. In some ways, it makes it much more difficult for us to follow the money when there are such small amounts of money required. We have had some witnesses speak to us on the potential, for instance, of foreign aid inadvertently supporting terrorist activities. Then we have had, from other witnesses, testimony that one of the root causes of terrorism is extreme poverty in these countries and that foreign aid is therefore important.

How do we maintain that balance? It's important to invest in communities and social infrastructure so that failed states do not become hotbeds of terrorism. At the same time, it's important to ensure that the money intended for institution and community building in some of these countries actually achieves that end.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

That's for Mr. Fanusie.

[Yaya Fanusie]

Yes, I think you've hit an important point—the question of aid. I think the answer lies in what aid goes towards and how strong the institutions are that you're going to invest in or provide aid to.

Perhaps an interesting example may be Mali, which for quite an amount of time many people would say was doing well and did not have that much of a jihadist problem several years back. But you had a vacuum, in a sense, with weak institutions and weakly governed space, a vacuum that extremists and others from other parts of the region were able to capitalize on.

So that's just one example. I don't know if that speaks to every question you may have.

But the issue is really, what institutions are going to be strengthened by donating the funds? I haven't identified foreign aid as one of the key sources of terrorist finance, but certainly having strong institutions on the ground probably makes the biggest difference in terms of how well foreign aid goes towards the targeted aim.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

When I speak of foreign aid I'm not speaking specifically of government foreign aid. I'm speaking also of the charitable non-profit sector, or NGO sector, where Canadians may be contributing. So that's what that was.

But thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Okay, well, you're at 5:11.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

Thank you, Mr. Brison and Mr. Rankin.

We'll go to Mr. Saxton, please.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's too bad that the NDP did not get a chance to ask another round. So I'll ask questions on behalf of Mr. Rankin.

Ms. Krause, can you tell us if you've done any study of other countries funding environmental activities here in Canada?

[Vivian Krause]

I've tried to look into that.

The biggest example I can think of is the Oak Foundation. I've traced, I think, $20.2 million that's come to environmental groups from the Oak Foundation. What's interesting, though, is that of that, less than $3 million shows up in the U.S. tax returns. So obviously that money came from U.S. charities. The question is, where did the other $17 million come from?

I wrote to the Oak Foundation last week, actually, and I told them I would be testifying today. I asked them to tell us which countries this is coming from. The reason is that we need to know under which rules that money was granted in the first place. Was it granted under the U.S. rules for charities, or, if not, under which other country? They did reply. They told me they wouldn't answer, but they would respond to a government official. So you could pursue that.

The other question—

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Sorry, can I just ask if you've seen any evidence of any funds coming to our environmental activists from oil-producing countries—like Saudi Arabia, for example?

[Vivian Krause]

No, I've seen no evidence of that. However, what I will say is this. A large chunk of the money, about $25 million, has come from the Tides Foundation. This is specifically for the anti-pipeline campaign. Also, of that $25 million, I can account for about half of it as coming from American foundations through Tides. The other half I don't know, but I—

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Would you have any idea what their motive is to do that?

[Vivian Krause]

Yes, I think it's very clear what their motive is. They want to develop their renewable energy industry, and Alberta oil has become the poster child of the campaign against fossil fuels.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Is the Tides Foundation also funding environmental activism against the Bakken properties, the oil producers in the U.S.?

[Vivian Krause]

No. Well, it's to a much, much more limited extent, but I think at some point we should say.... I often get this question: is the Tides Foundation a vehicle for money from the Middle East? There are two things. One, I see no evidence of that, and two, I can't imagine that would be occurring, because the Tides Foundation is one of the biggest funders of a number of issues, such as, for instance, the fight against homophobia—

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Okay. That's another subject for another day.

[Vivian Krause]

—the fight against violence against women, and the fight against the death penalty.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you very much. I have very limited time.

[Vivian Krause]

I can't imagine that they would be addressing those issues at the same time that there would be a conduit of funds from the Middle East.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Krause.

Professor Rudner, very quickly, you mentioned that Canada has been singled out and targeted by ISIL. How effective has the military intervention been by the coalition against ISIS?

I'll share my time with Mr. Cannan after that.

[Prof. Martin Rudner]

In my opinion, there are two wars going on with regard to ISIS. One is a war on the ground for territorial control, which we heard about this morning. The other is what we'll call “the war over jihadist principle”. That's the intention of ISIS, and it's in their public documents. The intention is to establish or re-establish a caliphate, not just in Iraq and Syria—which, by the way, are the territories of the original Abbasid caliphate—but globally. That war, we're not fighting with aircraft and troops on the ground. We have to fight with ideas. We have to find and support our colleagues within the world of Islam—who, by the way, are also threatened and targeted—to work together to defeat the threat to all of us.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to share my time with Mr. Cannan.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

You have one minute.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Johnston, I have two quick questions. I know that the U.S. House of Representatives is doing a study and that your colleague Seth Jones recently testified there. I was looking at his statement online.

I was wondering if you could highlight and share quickly some of the biggest threats to North America and some specific ways that nations like the U.S. and Canada can undermine these terrorist organizations and the funding they receive. I think you would agree that a person needs to be committed to a cause to become and/or fund a terrorist. What role does religion play in supporting terrorist financing?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Rajotte]

We'll try to do that very briefly.

I know those are big questions, Mr. Johnston, but if you can make a brief response, it would be very helpful.