Evidence of meeting #20 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Okay. Well, I appreciate that. Maybe you can let us know later who told you government plans for the future, instead of the parliamentarians sitting around the table.
Mr. Kelly, if I could ask you a few questions on the deck you provided, I'd be grateful.
First, out of curiosity, with regard to page 3, have you seen a change in these priorities from your members over the past number of years? Is this something that is fluid, or is it the “same old, same old” in what you hear from your folks?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Two of the top three issues are almost always in the top three priorities of our members. I should clarify that these are concerns about federal and provincial governments and not just the federal government. But the total tax burden and the cost of government regulation and red tape are always near the top of the list. They were for your government, and they are for the current government.
I will say, though, that concern over government debt and deficit has skyrocketed in recent months among our members. That is fairly new, given the fact that the government has not only committed to a.... I didn't get a lot of consternation during the election campaign about the Liberal commitment to run a deficit of around $10 billion. But we certainly got a lot when that budget target was missed, and now the target is a much higher number.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Yes. I'm just trying to get some information about it from you, by the way.
Page 6 of your presentation has an interesting chart. I don't know if I quite understand it as well as I should. Should I be reading it with page 7 as well?
On that point, if I take a look at the chart on page 6, for those earning under $20,000, can I assume if I look at the bar chart next to it that about 170,000 companies would have under 20 employees? Is that a fair way of reading the charts together?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Well, to be fair, they are different bases. The chart on page 6 is the actual income of the individual who owns the business, and the chart on page 7 is in fact the business income, so that's how much the business itself earns. Both of them show, though, that the vast majority of individuals who own businesses are at the low end of the income spectrum from a personal perspective, with all forms of income combined including dividends. I've been asked about that before. The chart on page 7 confirms that the vast majority of business income is well at the bottom end of the spectrum, with very few near the top.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Okay, thanks.
I did want to ask a question, if I could, going back to convenience stores. What's the makeup of employees? I know that you have the big C-stores, as they're called, and then you have the smaller independents.
What does it look like in terms of employment? You mentioned new Canadians coming in. I'm just trying to get a sense of what the average salary is for those who work in those stores.
President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association
The average number of employees per store is about eight. As to the average salary, we don't conduct that type of research.
President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association
No, actually, I wouldn't say that.
President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association
Our industry has to pay above minimum wage to be able to attract and retain employees.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Okay, very good.
You said that you're attracting a lot of new Canadians.
President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association
The industry seems to be viewed as something simple to get into. I think many of the newcomers to the country go into this because it's easy to understand, they believe. We think many of them struggle when they get into the industry, though, because it is far more complex. There are a lot of rules, a lot of regulations, a lot of red tape, which makes it a challenge for them.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Right.
My final question, Mr. Chair, goes back to Mr. Kelly, and anybody else can chime in on this one. I understand that the Minister of Finance made a speech and answered some questions at an event here in Ottawa a couple of weeks ago. In one of his comments he indicated to the crowd that, in his view, the Canada Pension Plan would not be available to Canadians because it was going to be bankrupt in a number of years.
Could I get your opinion on what the minister's statement means to your organizations?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
CPP is quite the hot-button issue with our members right now. We're very worried about the potential increase in premiums. It's often the view that a group like CFIB has never in our entire history supported any form of tax increase. I have to say that is wrong, and this often surprises parliamentarians.
When former Prime Minister Paul Martin worked to fix the Canada Pension Plan years ago, after terrible decisions of the past, our members supported an increase in Canada Pension Plan premiums in order to save the CPP. My understanding is that the CPP is safe for 75 years, has enough money for 75 years, and is in decent shape, better than a lot of the state pension plans that exist in the rest of the world. But the plan that's being proposed is not about saving the CPP; it's about expanding the CPP, and that's what worries our members.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Just in the spirit of information being provided to stakeholders prior to MPs, I'm wondering if anybody else has heard the same comments from the minister on the CPP being bankrupt, because I think we'd like to hear about it as well.
Does any one have that experience? No?
Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Thank you, Ms. Raitt.
We turn now to Mr. Johns.
Welcome to the finance committee, sir. The floor is yours for seven minutes.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Following from the question by member Lisa Raitt, I just want to ask if anyone else has heard about a promise down the road to reduce the small business tax rate, something that maybe parliamentarians haven't been told about.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
We've met with I'd say five Liberal cabinet ministers and probably 10 Liberal MPs. No one has suggested that the small business rate is coming back. One Liberal cabinet minister did tell us that small businesses should assume that the rate will remain at 10.5%, as stated in the budget.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Scholten, would you like to elaborate a little bit on your earlier comment? It certainly alarmed me.
President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association
It wasn't by any stretch of the imagination a promise. It was a recognition that it was in the platform they will endeavour to achieve that 9% rate in the future.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Brakel, have you heard anything else out of the broken promise?
Senior Director, Economic, Financial and Tax Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
No, we asked about it, but we had heard the budget says it's a deferral so it's not a cancellation of these tax credits. We never got an indication of when or if those tax rates would happen.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Mr. Kelly, do you think the numbers from the PBO's office are accurate? Have you done any research around that?