Evidence of meeting #20 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was budget.
A video is available from Parliament.
Senior Director, Economic, Financial and Tax Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Yes, the majority of our members are small businesses.
Conservative
Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB
The presentation you made this morning, was that your presentation or was it by the elected board of the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, who are actually business people?
Senior Director, Economic, Financial and Tax Policy, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
We have resolutions passed by two-thirds of our members from across the country. Usually the key things, our positions, say, on the Canada Pension Plan or on deficits and debts, are debated at our annual general meeting and then a resolution is passed.
Conservative
Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB
Okay, but I asked you who was part of preparing your presentation this morning. Was it you, or was it the elected business people of your organization?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Mr. Brakel is representing the organization, and I don't think it's fair to ask him who wrote the brief.
Conservative
Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB
No, I'm asking who is responsible for the presentation. Was it a personal presentation, or was it something that was drafted by many members of the organization?
I'll tell you why I ask. I've spoken to a lot of business people since the budget came out. I've spoken to the Alberta Chambers of Commerce, and the views of the business community I've talked to did not reflect what I heard from you this morning. In fact, you sounded more like a Liberal apologist than a Canadian Chamber of Commerce representative. That's why I'm trying to get to the bottom of this.
Anyway, I'll leave it at that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Mr. Liepert, a few minutes ago, we had a discussion between you and Mr. Sorbara on something you didn't like that was said. I don't think it's fair you call a witness who comes to this table in good faith a “Liberal apologist”. I really don't.
Conservative
Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB
I said it sounded like he was. I didn't say he was.
Conservative
Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB
The presentation sounded like a Liberal apologist to me.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Okay.
Conservative
Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB
I'd like to to follow up on my colleague's question on the Canada summer jobs program. What percentage of your businesses might apply for those jobs?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
The Canada summer jobs program is a good program. Our members do use it. They support the concept, and we've not had any major criticism of it.
When I was answering Ms. O'Connell's question, I was speaking about the fact that there appears to be a large rejection rate for applications from small firms. We've reviewed these applications from the Canada summer jobs grant in the past, and it seems that a disproportionately large number of approved programs are from the large-business and not-for-profit sector.
Now, I'm a not-for-profit association, too. We don't use the summer jobs program. We have paid internships at CFIB, but I will say that we support the program. We would like to see an increased focus on small and medium-sized firms so they don't get caught in the paper chase that these things can sometimes become.
Conservative
Ron Liepert Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB
This was my first experience in looking at who had applied in my riding, and there were very few small businesses on the approved list. I don't know if others had applied or not, but it didn't appear they had. There were a lot of applications from non-profit societies and that sort of thing. I would suspect that if the government, rather than handing out money to hire people, would have cut the small-business tax and given the small-business community the same kind of a break, it would probably have accomplished the same thing. It would have kept the government out of picking winners and losers. Is that fair?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
There are many roads to Rome. We are supportive of the Canada summer jobs program. We're supportive of the reduction in the rate for small business. We're supportive of the EI holiday that had been proposed for small firms. I will say, though, just to be clear, that our comments about the Canada summer jobs program have not changed from your government to the new government. My observations have been the same, regardless of who has been in power.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
Before I turn to you, Mr. Ouellette, I do have a question for Mr. Bruun because there's a real divergence and difference between testimony that Greg Meredith, the ADM for Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, gave here Tuesday versus what you gave.
You said G3 will pay nothing for the Wheat Board or its many assets to the government or farmers except for the trust units. Mr. Meredith, when he was here, said—and this is not his exact words because I questioned him on this—that there was really, virtually, no assets. I mentioned the rail hopper cars and the building, but his basic response was that there were no assets, mostly debt.
What's your response to his point? Are there assets or are there not?
Barrister and Solicitor, Canadian Wheat Board Alliance
I'm actually very pleased to hear that is his response. I notice that the Conservative members haven't questioned me on this issue either, so I assume that they will be fully in support of a comprehensive audit to prove themselves correct. The fact is, I think that there was $145 million in a contingency fund that transferred from the former Wheat Board to the Ritz Wheat Board, as I call it. One hundred and forty-five million is not nothing.
There were railcars bought and paid for many years ago. There is a building bought and paid for many years ago. There were various other accounts, uncashed cheques and so forth, that rolled into the next organization. The government, I believe, the government of the day, put $349 million into transitioning this entity so that it could be privatized. In the privatization process they've been acquiring new elevators at a very good rate and they just recently announced the construction of a new terminal elevator at Hamilton. How can they say they have no assets?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter
We do have recommendation 48 in our pre-budget report, but my only point is that somehow Canadians, and I think this committee, deserve an accounting on whether or not there are assets. That would be fair, in my view.
Thank you for your response.
Mr. Ouellette, you have five minutes.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
That's very interesting. I've also heard, Mr. Bruun, that in fact some of the railcars were actually mortgaged by the Canadian Wheat Board, as well as the building, and there was very little value left. But, as you have said, I believe the federal government should provide western Canadian grain and oilseed farmers with a full and transparent accounting of the dispositions of the Canadian Wheat Board assets since the act was enacted and make sure that you are satisfied, and that it's done openly and publicly. I agree with recommendation 48 and I hope the government carries it out.
I have a few questions for Mr. Scholten from the convenience stores.
We talk about the high price of credit card rates that are often charged to convenience stores. It adds to the cost of doing business. It adds to the cost of consumers. You represent 26,000 members. We had a discussion about this previously. You have a large base to use to create perhaps your own form of a credit card.
One of the problems with regulation is that it actually stifles innovation. It's very inefficient in an economy. It's sometimes not always best to run an economy through regulation, because how do you determine how much profit someone should make? Sometimes market forces are the best ones. If you were in the market providing your own form of credit—and Canadian Tire, I believe, does this, and Hudson's Bay has their own form of credit, they set up their own bank—perhaps, with your 26,000 members, you could cut yourself a better rate and challenge the credit card companies, MasterCard and Visa, as well as Amex to a smaller extent, and provide a better service.
President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association
I would disagree. Our members have told us across the board, from the large chains to the small independents, that they have very, very little negotiating leverage with credit card companies. When you have an organization like Couche-Tard, that has over 1,000 sites in Canada that aren't able to negotiate favourable rates that come anywhere close to what has been introduced in Australia or the EU, they believe that, regardless of the leverage they have, they won't be able to get those rates.
In terms of our association, we've taken the position that we are not a buying group. We don't come out and offer our members deals like that. Other trade associations are, but we believe that, by doing that, we take away from our ability to then come to discussions like this on credit card fees, for example. As a result of that, we've decided consciously this isn't something we want to get into.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
I just find it interesting.... You look at Uber and the taxi industry, and other sharing industries. Today, with the new technologies, I think there are ways of offering a level of service; 26,000 small businesses are not a small grouping of people. That is a major part of the economy. I personally believe that if you work together—and perhaps you could work with the government in order to see how this could be done—I see a possibility there where people can create their own co-operative in order to do the work they want to do, make better profits for themselves, reduce costs, and be more competitive. Perhaps, at the end of the day, you will challenge Visa and MasterCard to doing things a little differently. Maybe you will see rates starting to come down, because they will be afraid of losing market share to your company, and you might be able to make profit on lending out money.
President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association
You are seeing that in the United States right now, with many major retailers getting together to form a new payment system. In those cases, it is primarily the large retailers that are doing that, which do not represent the small, independent retailers. That is the challenge we find in terms of leverage. Bringing together very different levels of business to try to come up with a group solution is very difficult.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
I am sure it is very hard.
I was just wondering if you could talk a bit more about illegal tobacco. You have talked about that a number of times. You came for the pre-budget consultations. Everyone talks about organized crime. How does that relate to indigenous groups or first nations groups that sell tobacco? What is your position versus what first nations groups say is their treaty right and a constitutional right to sell tobacco?
President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association
That is a very good question.
From our understanding, in discussions with the RCMP, the contraband or illegal trade of tobacco has been infiltrated by organized crime. They have also infiltrated the reserves and in many ways control the trade on reserves as well. It is an issue that security and police forces across the country have identified to us.
On reserves, certainly within the treaty rights of first nations people to control tobacco on reserve, we are not here to dispute that. Our concern is that, as the tobacco products come off reserve, they no longer have that protection, and they should comply with all of Canada's taxes and tobacco control regulation.
Liberal
Robert-Falcon Ouellette Liberal Winnipeg Centre, MB
Now, from what I understand, having had discussions with some—