Finance Committee on April 2nd, 2020

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

—I have time for one more five-minute round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay.

We'll start with Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

How many mortgage deferrals have banks offered Canadians so far, Minister?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Minister.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you.

We are looking forward to getting clear data for Canadians and for this committee. This morning I was on a call with the leaders of the banks, asking them to make sure they provide information for us that can help us to understand the progress they're making.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

You are making massive infusions into the banking system. Would you and your party support a motion in Parliament for the Auditor General to conduct a full audit of value for money to ensure that the money that is being pumped into the banking system by CMHC, by the federal treasury and by the Bank of Canada results in value for money for Canadians?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

We recognize that it's going to be very important for us to provide information to Canadians and to provide transparency around these investments. I'll certainly take that request under consideration.

The focus right now must be on getting—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you. I know the focus. We don't have a lot of time. I just needed to know if you'd support that, so maybe you could come back to us.

The next question, then, is this. The Canadian Credit Union Association says there are 239 credit unions in Canada, yet only about a dozen of them are approved lenders allowed to deliver the Canada emergency business account. This matters because literally tens of thousands of businesses do their financial work through a credit union, not a bank, and they will not be able to get access to this emergency money unless credit unions can deliver it.

Will you commit now to having the list of approved lenders expanded so that the credit unions can deliver that account to our small businesses, particularly in rural communities in Quebec and in western Canada, where credit unions are very important?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Well, I think it's important that we have all aspects of our financial system working for the benefit of Canadian businesses. I'll certainly look into making sure that we're making efforts in that regard. Once we have more information, I'm sure we'll be able to get it out quickly.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you.

There are generous Canadians who do have the financial capacity to give more to our charities in this important and unprecedented time. The food bank is having to cancel, of course, all of its fundraisers and therefore is not able to deliver to people who are desperately in need, just as one example.

Would you support an expansion of the charitable donation tax credit, and also allow private shares and real estate proceeds to be given to charities without any of the money being diverted in capital gains tax to the government?

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, and to everyone listening in on this, we think it's critically important that we provide support to food banks and places that are helping people in this time. What I can tell those institutions is that they will absolutely get support through the federal government. We're going to make sure it's there.

We're not going to spend our time looking at tax code changes in a time of emergency. We're going to focus on getting support to people where they need it—for food on their tables and being able to pay their rent—and on making sure that food banks are going to have the capacity to provide the services that people need. When we get through this, there will be time for us to consider how we might ensure that our system continues to work well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

This is your last question, Pierre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Well, we are going to be back in Parliament again to look at the tax code, so contrary to what you just said, Minister, you do have to look at the Income Tax Act. You need to amend it a second time in order to deliver your wage subsidy.

In the process, why not unlock tens of millions of dollars of extra charitable giving at a time when we desperately need it, perhaps in a time-limited way, so that people who do have the means can get money to charities without any of it being diverted to government through taxation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, this is your final answer, Minister.

[Bill Morneau, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, all of you, for being there.

We will continue to focus on things that we see are urgent and immediate. With respect to ideas such as tax code changes that have been brought up repeatedly over many years, there will be a time for us to consider those. In the current environment, what we're going to focus on is how we can deliver for Canadians and ensure they have the capacity to support themselves and their families.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thanks to all the committee members. I look forward to being back in front of this committee in the near term. Take care.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you, Minister, for your time. I wish you well in the coming days on some of these tough decisions.

We will now turn our questions to the witnesses who are here from the various agencies. There's the Canada Revenue Agency, the Department of Employment and Social Development, and the Department of Finance.

When they are asked a question, I would ask witnesses from those various departments to state their name when they start to answer the question so that translation and the record can be kept straight with the name the response is attached to.

One final point before we start this session, which I didn't mention in the beginning, is that at four o'clock, when we should officially adjourn, I've asked the administration of the House to come forward for a quick discussion and to explain to us where it's at on attempting to get the video conferencing to work for next week, if that's even possible. So if people can hang on after four o'clock, we'll have a report from administration and House officials on where we're at in that regard.

Again, we're on five-minute rounds. We'll turn to Mr. Fragiskatos.

Go ahead, Peter.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I'm not sure if I was heard before, so I'll start again by thanking the officials for their work.

My question relates to health research. The importance of health research is particularly underlined at times like this. In our most difficult moments, we're seeing researchers across the country, including at Western University in London—and I'm honoured to be the MP for London North Centre, where Western is based—carrying out research on COVID-19, specifically in terms of developing a vaccine to combat the virus.

My question is about what we've done on the health research side in terms of funding. Do we have a figure that can be put forward by officials, and anything relating to health research in more general terms?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Who wants to take that, folks? Just state your name and go ahead.

Whoever wants to answer this question, please press *1 and then you'll be brought on the line.

Michelle Kovacevic, go ahead, please.

[Michelle Kovacevic, Assistant Deputy Minister, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

Thanks for the question. Obviously, this is Finance and not Health Canada, but I will let you know what I do know.

With respect to health research, there were two public announcements about the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. Both $25-million investments in research related specifically to COVID-19 and potential remedies and treatments, like antivirals, and to starting to develop some research relating to a vaccine. At the same time, there was an announcement regarding $250 million that would go to ISED, to industry. This is also about working with industry and seeding the necessary things in place to conduct clinical trials when we're ready with respect to antivirals and treatment for COVID-19.

I'm certainly happy to follow up with both of these organizations for anything beyond that, but that is as much as I know at the current time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

Peter.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I specifically asked the question not only to highlight the importance of health research, but I think it's also going to be absolutely critical when it comes to helping us catch up. The virus is obviously ahead of us right now, and it is about giving us an opportunity to overcome it, to catch up and to defeat it. The health research side is incredibly important, and any information that officials want to follow up with would be great. We can only get back on our economic feet, if you like, if the health research helps to get us there.

I want to ask a question on the wage subsidy also. I think you said there are officials from ESDC, Mr. Chair. Could they highlight what thinking went into the overall program design? Were we looking at what other countries were doing? This is obviously unprecedented in scope and scale.

There is also the underlying importance of making sure there is a link between employee and employer. From a social perspective, that is really important. Perhaps they could speak to that concept, that theme, and how it went into the construction of the overall subsidy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay, from any one of the departments, press *1 and you're on. Please state your name.

Mr. Marsland, your line is now open.

[Andrew Marsland, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance]

Thank you for the question.

Certainly, we did look and we continue to look at other countries' response to this crisis, both in terms of income support and wage subsidies. I think it's fair to say that countries have taken different approaches. Some, for example the U.K., have focused on furloughed workers; others have been more broad.

Our objective in looking at this was essentially to develop a program that could support workers who remain with their employer, but also to provide the capacity for employers to bring back onto the payroll employees who may have been laid off. The design of the program is intended to support both those objectives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

Does anyone else want to add to that or are we okay?

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

I have both Mr. Poilievre and Mr. Cumming. Mr. Cumming, I'll go to you, and then if Pierre could send me a note if he wants in, in the next round, that would be great.

Mr. Cumming, you're up.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Great, thank you.

My first question is for the Department of Finance.

We heard from the minister weeks ago that there would be some kind of package coming out for the oil sector in Alberta and Saskatchewan, and that it was hours or days away. As everybody is aware, COVID-19 is not only affecting people in Alberta and Saskatchewan, but we are also seeing this depressed oil price. The issues here are extremely significant.

I wonder if you can tell me when we can expect a package that would be supporting those industries.