Finance Committee on May 1st, 2020

[Jan VanderHout]

Exactly how much that will impact the planting is a bit of an unknown. There are already farmers deciding to reduce the amount of crop they are putting in.

The crops being seeded today are the ones that will be harvested in two, three or four months, so lettuce seeds and broccoli seeds are being dropped. Their not being planted will certainly come out as a decrease in production in Canada. This is really our concern with the timeliness of getting the modifications made to AgriStability. These farmers should know that if things go wrong and they don't have a labour force or don't have market access, they're not going to end up losing their farms over this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you.

Let's end that round there.

I don't know if anybody is working on Brian's sound from the interpretation booth, in case he gets asked a question again, but I would point out in this discussion, because I doubt finance committee members realize it, that one of the problems with AgriStability is the wait time before you get a payout. That's a serious problem. The situation in agriculture at the moment is that you can't wait a year for payment. The situation is immediate.

We will turn to Mr. Julian, and then to Mr. Cumming.

Peter Julian, are you there?

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I could pretend to be him, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We may get you in for a question.

I don't see Peter. I don't know what happened. I don't even see him here on the screen. We'll go on to Mr. Cumming—

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

He's back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

There he is.

Peter, you're on.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I was kicked out. I'm glad to be back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You're not coming through too clearly, Peter. Speak up.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Hopefully you can hear me now.

I thank all the witnesses for coming forward today. We certainly hope that your families are safe and healthy.

My first questions are for Ms. Drolet.

Ms. Drolet, thank you very much for coming forward today. You've raised real concerns about the impacts on migrant workers and undocumented workers.

Jenny Kwan, the parliamentarian, has written to the Minister of Immigration. Daniel Blaikie, another NDP parliamentarian, has written to the Minister of Employment. I've written to the Minister of Finance on this issue. There are very easy fixes, like providing temporary SINs, or extending SINs so they don't expire, and renewing work permits. These solutions are common sense, so I'm a little flabbergasted with why the government hasn't taken action.

Ms. Drolet, could you please tell us about how catastrophic the impact is on these workers themselves, as you've identified? Are front-line workers often working in long-term care homes? How catastrophic is the impact on providing health care and other supports to seniors and children, given the fact that the government has not yet taken any actions to actually ensure that migrant workers and undocumented workers are provided for through the CERB or other means?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Go ahead, Natalie.

[Natalie Drolet]

There's no doubt about the impacts on the individual workers who are our front-line heros, the workers who are doing the work that's allowing our society to be able to access food, health care and clean buildings and workplaces during this pandemic. They will be impacted in a catastrophic manner if it's not possible for them to have their work permits automatically renewed, for instance, or to have their SIN numbers renewed or issued to them if their work permits have expired.

As I mentioned, these workers are completely stuck in Canada. They cannot leave the country. They can't legally work if they've lost their job. If their work permit has expired, they can't get any kind of income support, whether it's the CERB or employment insurance. If they can't work or access any benefits, they won't be able to support their families. They won't be able to pay their rent or buy food. They are facing multiple and cascading crises on many fronts.

In addition to that, it makes sense from a public health perspective to regularize the status of workers whose work permits have expired. As I mentioned, if workers have secure status in Canada, they will feel more confident to come forward and report health and safety concerns at the workplace. They will report to their employers if they are feeling ill and will take a day off work. If workers don't have status, they live in fear, and they may not come forward to report their own symptoms or to report health and safety concerns in the workplace. As businesses reopen, we need all workplaces to be safe in order to reduce the spread of COVID-19. In addition, if we allow migrant workers to renew their work permits and get status in Canada, these workers will enter the formal sector of the economy again. They will pay taxes and they will be able to access health care if required. They will be able to go to the doctor if they do have any medical concerns.

So it benefits workers, but it also benefits the economy and is important for our public health as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

You can ask a very quick question, Peter.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Gillingham, last week Mayor Jonathan Coté and Mayor Mike Hurley talked about the impacts of the lack of supports for municipalities, and particularly for the transit system. If Winnipeg gears down on their transit system and there isn't federal aid forthcoming, what is the impact in the long term on the transit system in Winnipeg, in terms of trying to rebuild those routes and trying to rebuild passenger usage?

[Scott Gillingham]

It all depends on how long the pandemic lasts. We believe we can gear back up. We geared down, obviously, and reduced our service, but depending on how quickly the province reopens and how quickly universities get back in session and businesses get back up and running, we will meet the transit demands. We're watching that and monitoring that very, very closely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I'm sorry, but we have to end it there.

We have Mr. Cumming, and then Ms. Dzerowicz.

James.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all our witnesses today.

I want to start off with you, Mr. Booth. You've been involved with a lot of different businesses and are very entrepreneurial in nature. I see, too, that you're a member of YPO. I want to get your opinion or your thoughts around what everyone's talking about as the “restart”. What are you hearing from your business colleagues about when they're allowed to reopen? Is it business as usual, or do you see that they'll be looking for different ways to operate their businesses, lower their costs and behave differently, which is a lot of what I've heard from business people?

[Jeffrey Booth]

Yes, that's why this recovery is going to be a lot longer and is going to drive the technology trend faster. If you connect the dots to everything that's happening, it changes business radically. This is not going to be a V-shaped recovery.

Even if you open restaurants again, people are not going to go into them at the same rate. They're not going to travel at the same rate. The impact of what this looks like for business and how business changes as a result.... That's actually why the drive to technology is so fast. The companies that are driving to technology faster get more of the game.

There are a whole bunch of wins in that as well. Just about every company I'm involved with—I'm chairman of five of them and co-founder of a number of others—are actually seeing records right now, with massive growth and massive opportunity. I wrote the book The Price of Tomorrow for this reason. If our economic system doesn't change, then the winners are going to be fewer and fewer. We can still create winners, and there's lots of excitement about where the technology is going, but for the change in society, if you add that up across economies, it changes radically. This will not be a V-shaped recovery.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you for that. I heard someone use the new economic term “tub-shaped recovery” in terms of how slow it may be off the bottom.

Mr. Brading, I'd like to go to you about the rent subsidy program. I've been hearing from a lot of landlords that one of the major flaws in this program is with the tenants having to pay 25% of their rent and landlords picking up 25% of the rent. The difficulty with it is that landlords already are suggesting that they're picking up common area costs and the utility costs. Also, in many cases, the businesses, because they've been closed, don't have the capacity to pick up the 25% rent.

What are you hearing from franchisees and other people when they've heard about how the program was introduced?

[Jason Brading]

Thank you for the question.

We would be very happy to pay 25%. Our franchisees would be very relieved to hear that they could pay 25%. The reality is that most landlords out there are not committing to the program. Many are disqualified by not having mortgages. Other franchisees are above the 30% threshold in sales, which makes a lot of them ineligible for CECRA.

As a franchisor, we would help our franchisees meet that 25% requirement if they had been closed 100% during COVID. That's a manageable amount for companies to work with. I'm sure independent restaurants that have been closed completely might feel differently here, but some help is better than none, so I think that would be satisfactory.

I think what you see out there, and what we're hearing, is that franchisees and restaurant companies are happy with CECRA if we can open up the eligibility. Landlords are not jumping on board as quickly. They do not see the benefit of giving up 25%.

[James Cumming, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

On a wage subsidy program, what would be your recommendation? I know you want to extend it, but how do we make sure it doesn't become a dependency? Labour is a variable cost within businesses, so how do we make sure that it doesn't become dependent on that? Do you have any suggestions on that?

[Jason Brading]

It's a fair question. We have the same concerns with CERB and the student aid that goes out. We often hear that we have restaurants ready to open with no staff. The reality is—and it's unfortunate—that some staff are making just as much money by staying at home. That's a reality.

We do not want to take aid away from anybody. It's a difficult decision that the government has to make when it comes to who gets help and who doesn't, and not one that I envy, personally. I think the CEW has to be in place until we see the general economy start to pick back up, when we see that we can have dining rooms with patrons in them.

It was mentioned on this call that dining rooms will be empty for the short to medium term. I happen to agree with that assessment. Food courts in malls will be quite empty for the short to medium term. I think that until you see those segments of the restaurant business start to show some health, the CEW will be a necessary aid in order for restaurant operators to stay open.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Thank you. We will have to end it there.

I would say to Mr. Brading that we have heard the same from the tourism sector—that just when they get rolling, hopefully for a smaller season, the wage subsidy will be gone, so they've asked for it be extended, too. We'll see where that ends up at the end.

We'll go to Ms. Dzerowicz, and then on to Mr. Morantz.

Julie.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Thank you so much.

I just want to say a huge thanks to all of the presenters. These were excellent presentations. I'm sorry I have only five minutes to ask questions, since I have questions for all of you. The first one is going to be directed to Ms. Drolet.

You mentioned that migrant workers have work permits, but they're tied to one job. Many of them have been laid off due to the pandemic, and they're often in areas that are essential services. I think you mentioned agriculture and health care. It seems a little odd that, at a time when they are in essential areas, they would be laid off. Can you clarify that for me?

[Natalie Drolet]

We've seen a lot of workers being laid off in the home care sector, particularly if their employers themselves have been laid off and are now at home and able to take care of the individuals those home care workers were taking care of previously, or if employers are working from home and are able to share the responsibilities of taking care of a child or a person with a disability or a medical condition at home.

We're also seeing layoffs, of course, in the restaurant sector and in the tourism sector. We know there are a lot of migrant workers who've lost their jobs in those sectors, but they are interested in continuing to contribute to Canada in some way and are inspired to work where there are labour shortages, such as on farms. Some of those workers might have a background in health care and could utilize that during the pandemic.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Here's the other question I have for you. You mentioned that, if a work permit has expired, they don't have a choice. They can't work anywhere, so they become non-status here. My understanding is that, if there was an application for a renewal of the work permit that was expiring, if the application was put in before March 15, there's an implied status that the work permit is renewed. Did you know that?