Finance Committee on Oct. 12th, 2023

[Donald Bureaux]

Yes, yes and yes: I think it should be everyone at the table.

That's what happened with the shipbuilding contract. That was a table much like this, with 30 people who said, “This is our single focus; winning is the only option, and winning is getting that 30-year contract.” Well, winning for housing is that no Nova Scotian or Canadian lives without a roof over their head, and we all should be in it together.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Nahas, maybe just to follow up, I was speaking earlier in the week with another developer who has been working for a few years to try to develop 4,000 housing units and who said that the process, besides being tremendously long with the municipality, is tremendously costly to get through.

In his case, he said that their estimate on those 4,000 units for municipal costs from beginning to end in the process is about $150,000 a unit. I don't know when you're developing, including the infrastructure and everything that goes in and the multiple changes.... They're not at final approval yet. I wondered if you had any thoughts on the cost part of it.

[Norman Nahas]

The number doesn't surprise me. I know it's a massive number. That would be, I would imagine, from the subdivision/residential lot perspective. I don't have any recent information on that. I haven't done a subdivision in probably over a decade, but I know that on the multiresidential side, from permits from Halifax, from their HRM and into the water commission...then you're into different encroachments. The fees continue to escalate. You might have only a few line items, but every year they continue to grow, or they have some incentivization, say, on encroachment specifically—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Obviously, you have to get a return on investment on whatever it is you're building, whether it's affordable housing or not. How do you do that when the fees are so high? Doesn't that force the housing level up past the affordable housing accessibility framework?

[Norman Nahas]

That's what the affordable housing framework is, but at the end of the day, the costs need to be passed along. The new federal and provincial initiative on the tax freeze is a great initiative to start housing, which will have its own issues in terms of fulfilling those trades and supplies, but if that initiative were to be retroactive to anything that was still going to be completed, it would help push that tax credit to the end-user at the end of the day. If that's the ultimate goal, then it should be not just before projects get started that the HST or the taxes of both of the governments are held; it should be on anything that's currently not occupied.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Perkins.

Now we go over to MP Thompson for five minutes.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

Perhaps I could begin with you, Mr. Beaton.

First of all, I have to say thank you for the work you're doing. I think it's really quite incredible in terms of how communities come together, as are Atlantic Canadians' and Nova Scotians' volunteer and community efforts.

Could you provide more detail on what, once a family or a number of families come to a rural community in particular and the initial supports start to be pulled back, really makes the difference for a family or a number of families really being able to spread their roots, continue to grow their family and feel at home in a place? What supports do you need to have for that success?

[Jack Beaton]

For the families we have worked with, probably the primary thing is learning English in our community. If it's somewhere else in Canada, it could be French. Learning English is key, because you can't navigate the community if you don't know English. You're relying on volunteers. You really can't get a decent job. You can't get a job that pays even minimum wage. You just can't access things. You can't deal with your kids' school, for example. I got a call yesterday to deal with a very minor item, but mom couldn't understand the language.

I think what happens, too, is that people have to make a choice because of those low rates, the low payment they get each month, and often they're pushed to go out into the workplace, even for a minimum-wage job, just to support the family. That takes them away from learning English. Then you end up with this vicious circle of, “I need to go to work to support my family, so I can't go to English class.”

The other major piece that's going on in our community right now is a total lack of child care. There are four or five day care centres in town. The waiting list is about 300 people. I know it's in the works. I know it's one of those things that are in the works. We're pushing private day care providers out but there's nothing in their place. For a newcomer family—let's say mom is at home and dad's gone to work—she can't get out and go do anything. She has kids at home. She can't go to English class. She can't socialize. English class kind of becomes the centre of their world. It's not just learning English; it's learning the community. It's socializing. It's meeting other people from your own country and perhaps from all around the world. English is the key but it moves all around to....

I'm glad to hear you talk about the cost of housing, because in Antigonish a family of four or five is going to pay $2,000 a month. If your income is $33,000 a year, all of your money is being sucked up by your rent. Again, that's if you are forced out into the workplace prematurely, not having had the opportunity to learn English.

It's hard to nail down one thing, because everything kind of ties in. I say to people that if you want to pressure-test services in the community, bring in 20 or so families from around the world and settle them. Housing is an issue. Child care is an issue. Education is an issue. All of those things are issues.

Those are issues for everybody but primarily for the newcomer families.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you. I don't mean to rush you, but I want to link to Mr. Bureaux. Thank you, because I hear that in my own community.

It's good to see you again. I did have the pleasure of hearing you present in another committee around the shipbuilding strategy, but the comments you made around the wraparound supports for vulnerable youth and how you were able to ensure they were part of that workforce still resonate. Embedded in their workforce experience, probably a challenged school experience turned into a successful career. I don't know if in the few minutes remaining you're able to reference that wraparound for vulnerable youth and how you work with families as well, which will link somewhat to what Mr. Beaton was saying.

[Donald Bureaux]

Yes. Thank you.

The Irving Shipbuilding project has been a great microcosm. Pardon the pun, but we needed all hands on deck in order to build those ships, and we still found that certain communities did not feel that the workplace was a safe workplace for them to enter—women pursuing non-traditional trades, African Nova Scotians, members of our Mi’kmaq communities—and Irving stepped up.

Irving stepped up and said, “What do we need to do to ensure the success of these learners?” We had a program called “20-2020”. Twenty young African Nova Scotians started the program in 2020. All 20 completed the program, and all 20 were hired by Irving to be very successful apprentices. It was that kind of focused cohort. We worked with the unions, and we worked with providers of personal protective equipment. It was a complete package to help those individuals to be successful. At many of our campuses, we have day care, as was mentioned. We have food banks that people have to rely on.

I talked to a young mother who graduated from one of those programs. She said, “I went from asking myself if I had enough money to pay for the bus fare to go to the drugstore to earning over $40 an hour as an apprentice electrician.” That's the kind of transition that can happen very quickly. Her son, by the way, said, “I have the coolest mom in the world: She makes cookies at night and she builds ships during the day.” It can change the family dynamic.

When we talk about education, we have to think as a country of supports, not only from the classroom door in but from the classroom door out. If we need every single hand on deck, there's a hidden job pool or an employee pool in this country that we need to tap into.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Thompson.

Now we're going to the Bloc.

Members and witnesses, we'll be able to do only the second round. I am being very lenient on the times.

We have MP Ste-Marie.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you for your comments, Mr. Chair. We'll see in 10 minutes if that's still the case.

This is a joke.

[A voice]

Ha, ha!

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

My question is for Mr. Bureaux again.

There's one aspect of the colleges that I appreciate, and that's the fact that they partner with certain industries in terms of applied training. I think we've talked about partnerships with shipyards. But there are also partnerships with local industries in terms of applied research and innovation.

Have these partnerships reached their full potential in Nova Scotia?

What could be done to raise the profile of this research and innovation support with industries?

[Donald Bureaux]

Merci. That's a great question.

The notion of applied research is the second half of the work that the Canadian college system and CEGEPs do. We provide the human capital, but also the innovation, in an applied manner. When we work with our industry partners, we are solving real-world problems, and that can be implemented and used immediately.

Has the potential of the Canadian college and CEGEP system been maximized and leveraged? No, it has not. We have an opportunity to do more.

From a federal government perspective, in the past you have greatly supported the university sector in this country, and that's been wonderful, but I would argue that the college system has been under-resourced from a federal funding perspective in terms of the capacity for us to unlock and unleash the research potential in colleges. That's number one.

Number two, because we are in every single community, is that the research we do does not live just in large multinational businesses. We are here to support the small and medium-sized business sector too. As we all know, in talking about backbone, the backbone of the Canadian economy is the small and medium-sized businesses that live in our communities. If a business has access to a college—or a CEGEP in rural Quebec—where they can go and solve a real-world problem in a quick manner, it is going to help out that business locally. That's a big bang for your dollar, if you will.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for Ms. Roberts or Ms. Corbin.

When I was in high school, my English teacher's name was Mr. Corbin, and he was from the Atlantic. I had a long way to go, but he managed to teach me the basics of English.

I'm not sure what I'm going to suggest, but according to my colleagues, the government announced a commitment of $1 billion over five years to support the breakfast club and the association. That was in 2021, but the money still apparently hasn't been disbursed.

Is that what you're hearing, too?

If this money was paid out, how would it change the situation for organizations like yours?

[Lisa Roberts]

I'm not sure if I can entirely answer that question. You're referring to the Breakfast Club of Canada. That is its own charitable organization. It works through Nourish Nova Scotia, but it also has its own operations and many other relationships across Canada.

I'll just share one story that actually backs up the point that Ms. Corbin made about its making sense for the federal investment in school food to go through the provinces and territories.

I recently had an opportunity to meet with the Child Nutrition Council of Manitoba, which is the organization in Manitoba that is most similar to Nourish. However, unlike Nourish, it doesn't have a relationship with the Breakfast Club of Canada.

When the emergency support was made available during COVID, when the federal dollars flowed through the Breakfast Club and came to Nourish, we divided it, according to a formula, among the different regional centres of education.

In Manitoba, it went from the federal government to the Breakfast Club of Canada to the schools with which the Breakfast Club of Canada has relationships. Therefore, there were some educational regions that didn't get any federal resources. That's my understanding from the Child Nutrition Council of Manitoba. It was because the BCC doesn't have a relationship with every region, so some schools got a lot of money and were able to maybe really invest in a garden or in a cafeteria, but it didn't accomplish the sort of system-wide, relatively equitable distribution of that resource that I think is what you would want public dollars to serve.

[Gabriel Ste-Marie, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Roberts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Mr. Ste-Marie.

Your five minutes are up.

Now we're going to MP Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Bureaux, I take your point that the college system needs to do a better job on the “coming out of training and into a job” aspect. In Manitoba, I sat on the Apprenticeship and Certification Board there before being elected. I'm also a construction electrician myself. There were a number of folks in the pre-employment program that I was in who ended up working at a Home Depot or somewhere else. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not maximizing the public investment in their education in those skills to have them diverted into retail instead of pursuing a career in the trades. Often, that was just because there was no assistance in getting hired on with a contractor. They couldn't start their apprenticeship in Manitoba unless they were registered with a contractor, so their educational journey that began quite hopefully with the pre-employment program came to a sudden end when they couldn't find employment as a first-level apprentice.

Therefore, I'm glad that the shipbuilding strategy created opportunities to work with industry to place people after that initial start in a trade. I wonder if there isn't a similar opportunity in housing that comes only with predictable and reliable funding. I think what we've seen is that, for instance, the coinvestment fund, which is one plank of the national housing strategy, is committed now, and it's not clear when the funds will be replenished. The rental construction financing initiative hasn't had a new project announced in at least 18 months, I think. There's this kind of feast and famine, not just in the construction industry, which is normal for the industry, but within government funding itself.

I wonder if you could speak to the importance—if you think it is important—of having reliable, predictable annual offerings of funding in an industry like housing, so that contractors feel more comfortable staffing up because they know there's some more work coming. Then we could increase the baseload of work so that companies and the college system can train for a higher baseload, which also creates opportunities for contractors who aren't thinking about that regular work. However, there are just more people available, so they can grab from that larger base stock.

[Donald Bureaux]

Mr. Blaikie, I think you're spot on. This avoidance of peaks and valleys was exactly the philosophy behind the shipbuilding project: a 30-year arc of time that would prevent shipbuilding initiatives that last for three or four years and then the entire trained workforce having nothing to do for a period of time and leaving the industry. I am a big fan of that long arc of time, that ability for an individual to see themselves pursuing not a job but a career, and a career that will last many years, as well as an industry being able to see a predictable future in which it can invest.

We find that if in the long arcs of time we build only 25 to 30 warships over 30 years, then we've failed, because that is a priming of the pump for other types of innovation and creativity.

When President Kennedy challenged the U.S. to put a man on the moon by the end of the 1960s, the money spent on putting the man on the moon paled in comparison to the other spinoff innovations that occurred. My point is that economic growth happens exponentially when you have a long arc of time beyond the core project. We focus on housing as a national strategy. The spinoff from that will be exponential.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Now we go to MP Duncan.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here. This has been informative this morning.

Mr. Nahas, I want to build on some of the earlier comments. I was in municipal politics as a mayor in rural eastern Ontario. You mentioned the example of it taking four years from idea to vision to actually getting shovels in the ground or completing a project. We've heard this attitude even in some of the different panels, which I have found very frustrating. When I hear this attitude from the federal level, when it says this is just the way it is or it has to be, I don't buy that or believe that at all.

We talk about accountability in measures. If any one of us were to walk out in the street today and say to somebody who is struggling to find a place to buy or to rent, “Don't worry—we have a new plan, and in four years we'll have a spot for you,” we had better run pretty quickly. I think the response would be pretty harsh.

There has to be some accountability. The government now claims it is spending a record amount of money, and the results have never been worse. We have that flow-through, not only in a project being completed but also in funds actually being approved and given to get a project done.

In the four years it takes to get a building completed from vision to reality, in the last four years, what have your inflationary costs been to build an actual building, such as in the development right behind me? I imagine inflation being at record, 40-year highs. In terms of the general number across the country for construction inflation, some of the numbers we heard earlier this week were 30% to 40%.

Can you elaborate on just how much worse it's gotten in terms of costs to build in the last couple of years?

[Norman Nahas]

You've put me in a bad mood today. I was doing so well until now.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I apologize.