Finance Committee on Oct. 12th, 2023

[Norman Nahas]

You're hearing those numbers. I wouldn't say any of that, if you looked at a specific sector, would be unreasonable to say. In general, I'd say it's probably a quarter, a good 25% lift on that.

To your note about telling somebody who needs a home now that we'll have one for them in four years, the reality—and I'm not sure about how it is across the country—is that in Halifax the secret is out about how great this place is. Between the great universities and colleges, the port, the airport and all the other great things about it—

[A voice]

The donair.

[Norman Nahas]

—and the donairs, we have a lot of amazing things happening. People want to be here.

The reality is that if we tell people we'll have a home for them in four years, I don't think we'll have even that, because we still aren't making a third of what we need, even with these initiatives that are coming. Yes, they'll put more shovels in the ground and people will find a way to get it done, because that's what entrepreneurs and builders do, but I think it's still going to fail in comparison to what we realistically need.

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

There are 3.5 million new homes needed to meet demand by 2030. We have to triple the current number of housing starts. We've had the lowest number since 1972, and we've actually dropped from last year as opposed to tripling. I hate to be depressing, but I'd say the most realistic part is that it's going to get worse, not better, at the rate we're going in terms of the actual idea versus the reality of implementation.

Mr. Bureaux, perhaps I can ask a question, in my remaining time, about student capacity. I mean on a campus, for example, in terms of the admissions you have. You would obviously factor in the number of faculty you have and the classroom space you have. Do you use anything in terms of the housing available, both on campus and off campus, to determine...? I mean not just for international but for all students, whether they're Canadian or international. Is that ever a factor in what you do and use for admissions numbers year to year?

Where I'm going with that is towards the siloed approach, in that very often you can't tap into funds directly to help build more housing on or off campus, yet it's a major factor and we have people declining to go or not being able to go because of that factor.

[Donald Bureaux]

I'm sorry, Mr. Duncan. What's your question?

[Eric Duncan, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Whenever you're doing admissions numbers and deciding you're giving admission letters to x number of students on a campus, does the amount of housing available determine how many admissions you have and how many students you have on a campus?

[Donald Bureaux]

That is going to become part of our art and science of enrolment. We've seen for the past couple of years—the first time since I have been president—a large number of people finding an acute shortage of housing, but here's the interesting thing: It's not only in metro Halifax. It's in Yarmouth. It's in Springhill. It's in our smaller communities now, like Bridgewater.

We have students asking us if it's okay if they sleep in their truck in our parking lot. No, it's not, and it's not because they can't; it's just socially not the right thing for them to be doing, so let's find them a place to live.

That will become much more a part of the algorithm of finding the right math between enrolment and admissions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, MP Duncan.

MP Blois, you'll be our final questioner for today's session.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Norm, I'll try to get you out on a happy note and put a smile on your face.

Mr. Duncan talked about cost increases. These are things we're seeing around the world in the supply chain and some of the impacts.

I'm going to read a few things off. You're the only one I know in this room who builds housing. I guess Daniel could help you on the electrician side. There's increasing height in established zones, increasing height in residential and corridor zones, increasing as-of-right development approvals, removing more minimum parking requirements and allowing four units per lot by-right city-wide.

There's been a lot of talk about the municipality. Mr. Perkins talked a lot about Halifax approvals and challenges. Those are some of the conditions that Minister Fraser is putting on the municipality in order to receive federal money for housing.

As a developer, does that move the yardstick in the right direction in dealing with the municipality? By the Government of Canada basically saying that if you want housing money from the Government of Canada, it expects you to do this, does that make your life at least a bit easier in going in the right direction?

[Norman Nahas]

Sure it does. I was glad to hear that pre-announcement yesterday, and I look forward to reading the full press release on it, hopefully, here today.

It takes some of these...I don't know if it's a Big Brother type of mentality. We saw a similar thing when the province set up a housing committee. I don't know if it was to oversee or to help the municipality with getting things approved to ultimately expedite housing start-ups and builds, and to do it with the proper people who can actually get it done.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Absolutely. I think I would agree with some of my Conservative colleagues on the concerns around processing and time. That's exactly why we're being focused in saying that we are going to have targeted money and we expect these outcomes. It's to make sure that we're putting that pressure on.

I want to move to the folks from Nourish Nova Scotia.

Do you have a cost estimate, just very quickly, of what it might look like? I know we would have talked about this before. Do you have even just an estimate on a Nova Scotia lunch program? If you don't, maybe you can send that in to the committee later.

[Lindsay Corbin]

It is, unfortunately, a complicated question. However, I can certainly tell you there are examples of.... Like Lisa said, if you're looking just at food costs, it's $1.50, but I know one that is $2.00 for just food costs, so I'd be guessing $5 per lunch, but we don't have conclusive data at this point.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I know you guys had some rough estimates...even whatever this committee could have in Nova Scotia. Let's say it's $40 million or $50 million of new spending per year. That at least gives this committee something to chew on as we go back and perhaps look at recommendations that you've talked about in advancing this really important issue.

While I have the opportunity, I think about folks at places like the Station Food Hub, which is really focused on working with farmers to package and ensure that there's healthy local food delivered in an institutional setting. Whether or not that's hospitals, or whether or not that's food, we'd like to put that on the record, Mr. Chair, in terms of the work.

I have about 30 seconds on this one for you guys.

Do you see a role for government in matching and working with the private sector?

I think about people like Joe and Sue from the valley. They're great philanthropists and people who want to invest in the community. Joe is on me all the time, saying they want to help to find some private money that could help complement public money in this.

Are there any thoughts from Nourish Nova Scotia? I guess it's about just trying to drive resources on this question.

[Lisa Roberts]

I actually had a conversation with Joe early in my days at Nourish, and there's certainly a lot of passion.

Frankly, what we see is that schools are in communities. Schools are not separate from communities, so often the solutions to putting good quality, preferably local, healthy food in front of students each day involve many different partners, and that's part of the role we play here. We're serving the community around the school to see who the partners can be. Many of those are non-profits, but some of them are private. They tend to be local, rather than the larger corporate—

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

That's great. Thanks. I have only 35 seconds left, and I want to get in a final one for Don.

There's been talk about having NSCC work with the province on vacant provincial Crown land to build housing for students. I think there's certainly a role for the Government of Canada. I've talked to the President of the Treasury Board. I think our disposal process on federal vacant lands is too long. In some cases it's five or six years.

Just quickly, with the 13 campuses you have here in Nova Scotia—I think about Kentville and Middleton, for example—if there was capacity around vacant federal lands, is that something you think NSCC would be willing to partner in to drive those initiatives on, perhaps, student-led housing for your community colleges?

[Donald Bureaux]

Yes.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

That's great. I knew that was going to be the answer.

I want to thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

That's a good way to end, on that answer. Thank you, MP Blois.

Listen, we are here at the home of Pier 21 in Halifax, where many have come from right around the world. We've heard from those who have settled here and built businesses through innovation and hard work; our colleges, with all their support; nutrition programs to help our kids have a healthy start to their learning; and of course this includes all the new settlers we have coming in, and how we can support them.

On that, on behalf of the members of the committee, the clerk, the analysts, the interpreters and everybody who has helped us on this cross-country tour in our pre-budget consultations, we want to thank our witnesses. You guys have been amazing and tremendous. Thank you for your testimony. It will help shape and inform the report we are presenting in advance of budget 2024. Thank you very much.

That will conclude our meeting. We're adjourned.