Evidence of meeting #3 for Finance in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Catherine Demers  Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Trevor McGowan  Director General, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Yves Poirier  Director, Economic Development, Business Income Tax Division, Department of Finance
Douglas Wolfe  Senior Director, Strategic Policy and Legislative Reform, Strategic Policy, Analysis and Workplace Information Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Employment and Social Development
Benoit Cadieux  Director, Special Benefits, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development
Maximilian Baylor  Senior Director, Personal Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't know if there are any officials available to respond to this, but I want to ask about the section around the amendments to the Income Tax Act and the COVID business supports. We talk about enhancing and extending the Canada recovery hiring program, which I'm excited about. As a replacement for the wage subsidy, this has been very helpful to employers.

I wonder if there's anyone who is joining us today from Finance who's able to respond about the take-up of the Canada recovery hiring program. How has it been helpful in ensuring that businesses are able to hire the workers that they need in order to continue to succeed as businesses?

5:30 p.m.

Senior Director, Personal Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Maximilian Baylor

Maybe I can answer that one. Indeed, with regard to the intent, we've talked a lot about the pivoting and moving to the more restrained support programs, which are for the tourism and hospitality and hard-hit businesses. But also the notion is, as you rightly point out, that a lot of the businesses are recovering, but not all of them are recovering in the same way. The Canada recovery hiring program allows for those who are recovering and starting to rehire, but maybe not all the way back, who still have revenue losses vis-à-vis where they were pre-pandemic, to get a subsidy to hire workers more or less—and I'm going to generalize here—at the levels at which they were at the time of the budget. That program is now being extended. The idea there, of course, is that those businesses that have started to recover but that don't need the support they were getting previously can continue to get a subsidy.

Now in terms of the take-up numbers for that program, as you know for both the wage subsidy and the rent subsidy the CRA provides very detailed tracking on their website on the number of claims and on the number of applicants and whatnot. That information is publicly available. The intent is to do the same thing with the Canada recovery program once all of that data is available and can be put up, so that will be available once—

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

If I can ask a follow-up question, is this program available only to those in the tourism and hospitality industry or the hardest hit industry or is it open to any employer? Can you just confirm that?

5:30 p.m.

Senior Director, Personal Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Maximilian Baylor

That is correct. My colleague Yves Poirier can maybe add to that, but yes, that's—

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

No, that's okay. A simple yes or no is good. I'm good on that.

Also, it says here that it's available for all eligible employers with a current revenue loss above 10%. Has that changed from before? Is that consistent with the program that had been introduced previously and we're just extending the availability of this program?

5:30 p.m.

Senior Director, Personal Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Maximilian Baylor

Again, I think Mr. Poirier could confirm, but, yes, that is my understanding.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

Okay, that's excellent.

Well, that's great. I know it's been helpful to a lot of businesses in Davenport and I think it will continue to be very helpful.

How many minutes do I have left?

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

You have 40 seconds.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON

Maybe in my 40 seconds, I can ask about the recovery benefit.

For the sickness benefit as well as the caretaking benefit, I know we're extending those by two weeks. I wouldn't mind understanding the rationale for why it is not three weeks or one week. It's just to understand the rationale for landing on the two weeks. That would be helpful to know.

Thank you.

5:30 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Catherine Demers

For the additional weeks, we have looked at a number of factors. These benefits have been available since September 25, 2020. A number of Canadians have for good reason needed that support and have reached the maximum number of weeks that were available under those benefits. Not a very high percentage have exhausted it, but still it's to make it available to them.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you very much.

Now we're moving to the Bloc and Madame Sinclair-Desgagné.

5:35 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't have much time left, but I'd like a specific answer from our colleagues at the Department of Finance.

Inflation isn't the only global issue. Supply chains are also a problem. There have been plant closures and declines in production, particularly in the manufacturing sector. There have also been shipping challenges. Again, many businesses are suffering as much as the tourism and hospitality sector as a result of the pandemic.

Is it conceivable that sectors that meet the criteria, such as a 40% revenue decline, will have access to government assistance? Is it conceivable that the manufacturing sector could benefit from the same conditions that apply to the tourism and hospitality sector?

I hope that the answer is yes.

5:35 p.m.

Senior Director, Personal Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Maximilian Baylor

I'll try to answer the question.

The tourism and hospitality recovery program includes a definition of the type of eligible businesses. The businesses that don't fall under this definition will need to use the hardest‑hit business recovery program.

5:35 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I gather that, although the businesses are suffering as much as the businesses in the tourism and hospitality sector, they aren't entitled to the same eligibility requirements for government assistance.

5:35 p.m.

Senior Director, Personal Income Tax Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Maximilian Baylor

As noted earlier, this is the case if they don't fall under the definition for the program. However, in the case of a local lockdown, these businesses will be eligible for the same conditions and they can receive the same type of assistance.

5:35 p.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I understand. Thank you.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Fonseca

Thank you.

We're moving now to the NDP. Mr. Blaikie, you have two and a half minutes.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you.

One of the big problems for a lot of the seniors who are guaranteed income supplement recipients and who did work, according to the rules of the program to top up their income, is that CERB payments that they received are now being clawed back, effectively, by reducing their guaranteed income supplement. This is also happening to low-income families on the Canada child benefit, who have, likewise, seen their pandemic benefit payments clawed back through the CCB program this year.

I'm wondering if the government has taken any measures in the act to avoid this happening again by stipulating in the legislation, for instance, that Canada worker lockdown benefit income will not be included in the eligibility calculation for income-tested programs, like the guaranteed income supplement and the Canada child benefit.

5:35 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Catherine Demers

Representing ESDC, what I can say, Mr. Blaikie, is that I can return with these questions to colleagues in my department who are responsible for those programs. This is not an area that is under my purview, but I can say that there is work under way and that we can provide a follow-up response.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

There's nothing in the bill that addresses this issue. Is that a fair assessment?

5:35 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Catherine Demers

With respect to supports for workers, we've talked about some of the integrity measures that are—

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

This means there's nothing in the bill that would ensure that payments under the Canada worker lockdown benefit are not included in income eligibility calculations for the GIS and Canada child benefit, or other income-tested programs of the federal government.

5:35 p.m.

Director General, Employment Insurance Policy, Skills and Employment Branch, Department of Employment and Social Development

Catherine Demers

I believe there is nothing in the bill.

5:35 p.m.

Director General, Tax Legislation Division, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance

Trevor McGowan

I can confirm there is nothing in part 1 of the bill that relates to that.

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Daniel Blaikie NDP Elmwood—Transcona, MB

Thank you for a clear answer. I appreciate it. I am disappointed that, given the fact it's been an issue for months now and the government says they're working on a solution, there is no solution in the bill.

I take it to mean that the solution for this is possible without any legislation. The government could actually do this by regulation. Is that also fair?