Finance Committee on Dec. 9th, 2021

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Poilievre may have quoted other economists, but he has said that. Mr. Poilievre has said that excessive government spending has caused inflation.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, it was actually the minister who quoted that economist. Larry Summers is someone who inspired her thinking, not me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Mr. Poilievre, the member....

Mr. Baker, you have the floor.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I hope this won't count towards my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

It has not counted towards your time.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Poilievre has said that excessive government spending has caused inflation in Canada, even though we know there's a global problem acknowledged by economists around world on the right and on the left. My colleague Ms. Dzerowicz highlighted one of those economists, Stephen Poloz, who, when he was interviewed recently and asked about that, said “that's not right”. He said, “In fact, what the stimulus did was to keep the economy from going into a deep hole in which we would have experienced persistent deflation.” That was Mr. Poloz.

MP Chambers highlighted that Mr. Poilievre warned about inflation a number of times, as though Mr. Poilievre is an oracle of inflation, and I look forward to hearing what other predictions he makes about the economy. The only problem with that is that at the same time as he was issuing those warnings, he voted for that spending. His entire caucus voted for that spending, so Mr. Poilievre's credibility on this matter, to me, is shot. I think we should take note of the fact that, on the one hand, he's saying spending caused inflation, while, on the other hand, he supported that spending.

MP McLean said we “flushed...half a trillion dollars into the...economy”. I could not disagree more. Calling the support that we provided to Canadians, things like the CERB and the wage subsidy, something that we “flushed” into the economy so that Canadians could put food on the table, so that businesses could survive and so that we could avoid bankruptcies is not only inaccurate but massively disrespectful to those Canadians who—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

On a similar point of order, Mr. Chair, I don't hear his question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Let's find decorum and respect for all members.

Mr. Baker, you have the floor.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

It's part of my preamble, Mr. Chair.

I think what both Mr. Poilievre's and Mr. McLean's statements underline is what the Conservatives would have done had they been in government in response to COVID-19 to support Canadians through the pandemic. What they would have done is nothing.

My question to you, Deputy Prime Minister, is that, in Ontario at least, where my riding is located, cases are up. On December 7, it was reported that new modelling from the science table forecasts a rise of 250 to 400 intensive care admissions in January, even without omicron. The science table said, “Case numbers count, because too many Ontarians remain un/under vaccinated & will end up in hospital”. I think that's a good reminder for all of us to work hard to make sure everyone gets the vaccines they're eligible for, and a good reminder that, as you have said, “the single most important economic policy for Canada continues to be making sure that everyone who can get vaccinated does get vaccinated.”

In light of this new modelling, Minister, and in light of the emergence of omicron, what could be the potential impacts for constituents of Etobicoke Centre and businesses should the measures in Bill C-2 not be in place soon?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Thank you for the question.

I want to start by pointing out that, in the last Conservative round, no question was asked or no time was left for me to answer. It only leads me to think that maybe the Conservatives are afraid of our answers. That would be surprising.

I want to be serious for a minute, because we're talking about the Canadian economy and we're talking about the lives of Canadians, and that is serious. I want to say to Canadians that we're very aware of the affordability challenges that people face. It's something we take seriously, and it's something we're concerned about.

I also want to say that when it comes to the extraordinary measures we put in place both to fight both the coronavirus and to fight the recession it caused, it was absolutely the right thing to do. We were hit by the deepest crisis since the Second World War in terms of a national emergency, and the deepest economic recession since the Great Depression. Things were bad. They could have been so much worse absent extraordinary, agile government action that put a floor under the losses and prevented economic scarring.

Today, we are seeing the positive results of that emergency action. We are seeing the GDP growing. We are seeing a very strong job recovery. We are seeing strong exports. We are seeing that the economic muscle of Canada has not atrophied and that Canadian families are still solvent. This is really important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Minister.

We are moving now to the Bloc for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Madame Sinclair-Desgagné.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Madam Minister. Thank you for your speech.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to ask you a question today. I will get straight to the point. In your speech, you talked about the hardest‑hit sectors, including the tourism sector, which we welcome in Bill C‑2. When you say “particularly the tourism sector”, it also means that other sectors are being hit very hard, and have been since the beginning of the pandemic.

It isn't only inflation that is a global phenomenon, supply chain issues are as well, as you know. There have been international plant closures and a decline in the production of key parts in some sectors, including microprocessors, which are essential for many sectors of the economy.

In addition, due to problems with maritime transport, some companies are being hit very hard, especially in the aerospace sector. We would like a clear commitment from you. Will these companies be able to receive at least as much help as the tourism sector can get, especially if we present you with the figures and see how badly these companies are affected?

Thank you.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Thank you for the question, as well as your serious approach and your co‑operation on these issues, which are very important to the people who elected us. I really appreciate it. We may not always agree, but we can have a concrete and productive conversation.

In the budget, we have taken a particular approach to the aerospace sector, for which we have earmarked a contribution of $2 billion. Canada's regional development agencies will receive $250 million to help revive the sector. There is also the strategic innovation fund, under the leadership of Minister François-Philippe Champagne, who knows the sector very well. Under this fund, the aerospace sector will receive $1.75 billion.

I want to stress that we understand the specific and strategic importance of this sector. We also understand, as you have just explained—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Madam Minister.

We have to move to the NDP for two and a half minutes now.

Go ahead, Mr. Blaikie.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you very much.

I think one of the aggravating factors in terms of people's frustration and anger over the benefit clawbacks is that they look at some of the companies that received assistance under the Canada wage subsidy, whether that be Bell or Chartwell or others—we could go into some of those examples, if you like—who increased significantly the dividends they paid to their shareholders. In some cases, there were share buybacks. The government hasn't so much as even asked for any of that money back, let alone pursued them in the way that some of the financially vulnerable have been pursued by the government.

Bill C-2 was an opportunity to incorporate some of the advice that this committee gave to government in the last Parliament around dividends and around share buybacks and ensuring that recipients of the wage subsidy wouldn't engage in those kinds of activities. Why did the government choose not to incorporate those restrictions around dividends and share buybacks in addition to executive compensation in the new legislation?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Thank you for the question.

As you have pointed out, we have included what I think is the very appropriate restriction on executive compensation. That, you're quite right, was indeed based in part on work done by this committee and the members of it, and I want to thank them for it. I think that is an important restriction to put in place. We are always interested in continuing to evaluate additional ideas that people want to put forward, and I'm happy to have further conversations about them. In—

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

In this case, it's not a new idea. It was out there. In fact, we have been calling for that to apply to previous pandemic benefit legislation. Here was an opportunity to take that feedback and implement it. Why did you choose not to do that in this legislation?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

One of our objectives in putting in place this legislation is to balance.... Let me maybe put it a little bit differently. These are programs that are unique to the COVID moment. In putting them in place, we try to strike a balance between simplicity of administration, between the ability to deliver the programs—

[The Chair, Liberal, Peter Fonseca]

Thank you, Minister. That's the time.

We are moving to the Conservative.

Mr. McLean, you have five minutes.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Leswick, some time ago you were asked about the outstanding debt in Canada. Did you come up with those numbers since you were last asked?

[Nicholas Leswick]

I don't have the answer to that question.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay. I'm disappointed, and it follows along with the information we're getting from your department. Officials who were here the other day didn't seem to be able to answer any questions about the $7.4 billion that we're going to spend on this, potentially. It might go to $9 billion. They couldn't give us the modelling. They couldn't give us the assumptions. They couldn't give us anything, because they didn't know, much like it seems you don't know. These are basic numbers. These are real numbers that I would expect somebody at your level to have at their fingertips on a day-to-day basis about the net debt of Canadians. I'll let that go.

Minister, you talked about Canadians' balance sheets and Canadians' net worth. That's their household net worth, of course. In the last two years, the federal government debt that you're in charge of has gone up by 34% for each individual Canadian. That's up to $42,000 per man, woman and child in Canada. How can you say that their household balance sheets have improved, when the country's balance sheet, to which they are directly responsible, has deteriorated so badly?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Thank you for the question. It might be worth reminding you, Mr. McLean, and all of the Conservative members that you have just been elected on an election platform that actually proposed to increase the deficit for 2021-22 to a higher level than what was proposed in the Liberal platform. The Conservative platform proposed a $168-billion deficit for 2021-22, whereas in the Liberal platform we proposed a deficit of $156.9 billion. Let me emphasize that this was our election platform.

I think it's important for Conservatives to be clear with Canadians about what it is you are actually proposing. If Conservatives are indeed today saying that they believe it was wrong to support Canadians and Canadian businesses during the pandemic, and if Conservatives are saying that they believe it is wrong to provide support to tourism and hospitality, which still cannot fully reopen—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay, Minister. Okay—

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

—you should be clear and honest with Canadians.