Finance Committee on June 8th, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

I'm sorry. Are both of you raising your hands?

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

I think he had his hand up first. I just want to make sure that I'm on the list.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Okay. We'll have Mr. Lawrence and then Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

I was wondering if we could have the officials up. I have a couple of questions.

Is that you, Mr. Walsh? Perfect.

It's Mr. Turnbull's position that some of this information is already provided. Could you explain to me what information is already provided and, if any, what information could be made available by virtue of this amendment that's not currently available in, I'm guessing, the same tax expenditures publication?

[Mark Walsh]

The tax expenditures report would include information on the number of claimants, but not the number of actual conversions. It's the same issue with respect to the qualifying business transfer. The issue, again, is that multiple capital gains deductions may be made with respect to a single qualifying co-operative conversion, meaning that the information on the number of co-operative conversions is currently not obtainable, based on the information the CRA collects.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

If I could, again, Chair...?

I understand and I hear you. You have the number of claimants but you don't necessarily have the number of conversions. Could you provide us with—even just in broad strokes—what the cost would be, either in finances or in man-hours? You have the information, but you need to distill it down.

First of all, would you agree with my premise that you have the information and that it's just a matter of repackaging that information?

[Mark Walsh]

In terms of the resources that would be required, I'm not in a position here to say how many resources would be required to obtain this information in a way that would be conducive to the statistical analysis required to provide the information in the amendment.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

The first part of my question—and I apologize that it wasn't that clear—was this: Do agree with my assertion that the CRA has the information necessary to fulfill the requirement in this amendment, but you don't currently put it together, for lack of a better term?

[Mark Walsh]

I wouldn't want to speak to what extent the CRA has this information. I think that's more of a question for the CRA to answer. What I know is that I am not in a position to be able to say what information can be provided.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

That's fair.

Do we have the CRA here, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

No.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

Well, it's a shame.

Who decides which experts were put forward?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

We send it to the Department of Finance, and they coordinated the officials.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

Mr. Walsh, were you part of the team that decided not to invite the CRA? Who would have done that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

That's beyond Mr. Walsh's.... It would be the Department of Finance.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

Could we have the Department of Finance up here, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

He is here for the Department of Finance.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

Okay. Well then, I'm going to ask the Department of Finance because they're the ones who decided, Chair.

Why is the CRA not here?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

In fairness, Mr. Lawrence, I don't think Mr. Walsh can answer that question because he's not necessarily the person who made the decision as to which individuals were coming.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

Well then, who is?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

I don't believe they are here, Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

I'm left without getting an answer because the appropriate person was not asked for from the finance department, but the finance department won't answer why they didn't ask the appropriate person to be here. Does this make sense?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Mr. Lawrence, we have a wide range of officials here, and unfortunately—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Clarke, ON]

We have a question regarding the Income Tax Act, yet we don't have the CRA here...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

You have the list of officials in front of you, Mr. Lawrence.