Finance Committee on Oct. 20th, 2025

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

We've committed to making sure that the industrial carbon price works effectively and strongly. It's one of the requests that comes from industry all the time. They want to make sure that they have certainty and predictability as they move forward. Making sure that the system for the industrial carbon price is strengthened and working effectively is very important.

We're talking about two things at the same time. I think it's really important to focus on that. It's about reducing emissions, but it's also about setting up business for success and industry for success here in Canada.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Maybe I'll ask for a comment on the economic cost of climate inaction, which is something with regard to which I've often thought, “If only we could, in a detailed way, look at how much it costs if we don't act.” Can you comment on that at all?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

There are two pieces. There's a human cost to climate change, which we're seeing in all of our communities. I don't want to look away from that. Communities are being evacuated, and people lose their homes due to wildfires and natural disasters.

When we're looking at it, there's also the economic cost, and—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull, for your question.

I will now turn to Mr. Garon, from the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. Garon, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, Minister. Welcome to the committee and congratulations on your appointment.

You already know what my first question's going to be, since it's been asked a million times.

During the election campaign, your party bought votes by reimbursing citizens of seven provinces for a carbon tax they had not paid. However, Quebeckers, who essentially paid that tax, didn't get a cheque. We're talking about $814 million that was stolen from Quebeckers.

I won't ask you your opinion on the matter, since it has been scientifically proven. The Parliamentary Budget Officer has confirmed this, and so did your officials. When he came before the committee, the Minister of Finance did not deny it. He suggested that using the consolidated revenue fund—in other words, the government's bank account—to reimburse people for a carbon tax they did not pay as a way to buy votes wasn't a big deal, since the federal government had used that same fund to pay for the new Champlain Bridge in Quebec.

Do you agree that it's okay to buy votes because the Champlain Bridge was built using federal funds?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I would say I disagree with many elements of your question. Therefore—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

A Liberal who disagrees with facts. Nothing new there.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Oh! That's—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

What do you think of the Minister of Finance's comment that it's okay to buy votes because the federal government paid for the Champlain Bridge?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I don't agree with what you're saying. What's more, I feel I'm being attacked when you say I'm denying facts, because that's not true. The work I do must always be based on science and facts. That's important.

It's also important to remind everyone that Quebec and British Columbia have their own systems.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Minister, your speaking time is my speaking time.

When you gave out a carbon tax rebate a few days before the election, you were reimbursing unpaid taxes. Just like the citizens of Quebec, which has its own system, those of Alberta and Saskatchewan had not paid the tax that would have justified the rebate.

My understanding is that you believe the Parliamentary Budget Officer lied to us when he said that seven provinces were reimbursed for taxes that had not been paid.

When officials from the Department of Finance appear before this committee and tell us the rebate was given out for taxes that had yet to be paid, they're not doing meticulous work. It's okay when the Minister of Finance appears before this committee and, while not denying the facts, says that buying votes isn't a big deal because the Champlain Bridge was paid for using the consolidated revenue fund. That means the opposition and the Parliamentary Budget Officer are the ones denying the facts.

It's not easy being a minister, is it?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I'll say it again: I did not say that someone lied. Also, I don't like talking this way about others doing their job as public servants, or about ministers and MPs. It's about respect. I think it's important to stay away from that kind of language.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

The minister didn't deny that the rebate had been given out in seven provinces to refund a carbon tax people hadn't paid.

Where's the lack of respect? The Minister of Finance appeared before this committee and said it wasn't a big deal to buy votes because Quebec got its Champlain Bridge.

Was it respectful for him to say that, Minister?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Are you asking me in my capacity as environment minister?

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

No.

In Bill C‑4, Environment Minister, you are proposing to eliminate, Environment Minister, the carbon tax, Environment Minister, and in the context of this bill, Environment Minister, you reimbursed unpaid taxes but left out Quebec. We're talking about $814 million that was not paid to Quebec.

I understand you want to change the subject, but please explain…. Environment Minister, please explain how my comments regarding Bill C‑4 are out of context.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

What I was saying and will say again is that Quebec and British Columbia have different systems in terms of how the carbon price works.

What we're talking about today is what we'll do to eliminate carbon pricing through Bill C‑4. That is exactly what we are going to implement.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I'll follow your logic. Seven provinces have not paid the carbon tax, but they received in advance a rebate for a carbon tax they will never pay, all from the federal government's consolidated fund to which Quebeckers contribute 22%. Under Bill C‑4, you wrote cheques to people who had not paid. You issued rebates for something that was never paid.

When we ask that Quebec be given its fair share, we are told that we are being insolent and disrespectful. The Minister of Finance just told us that, because the federal government paid for a bridge 10 years ago, it's okay to rob us. We're told it's not related to Bill C‑4, Minister. We're also told that, because Quebec had its own responsible system, it's okay to steal from Quebec.

That's what I understand from your answer.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

That's not what I said.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

That is what you said.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

No, that's not what I said at all; that's what you—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Because we have a different system, we are not entitled to a rebate like the other provinces that have never paid the tax.

You know, I—

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I said that Quebec had a different system and that, in the rest of the country—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I understand why you're uncomfortable, Minister. I would be, too, if I were in your shoes.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

—there are different charges.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Garon and Minister.

We will now go to Mr. Hallan for six minutes of questions.

Thank you.