Finance Committee on Oct. 20th, 2025

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

What I have actually said—and I think I've said it now a few times—is that we are going to be there as an energy superpower, and we need to make sure, as we're doing that, that any progress in that way is low carbon, low risk and low cost.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

Okay. Do you support a Pacific pipeline, yes or no?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I'll go back to this piece. It's a hypothetical that you're putting to me right now: a Pacific pipeline. There's no designed policy or project.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

Okay, so here's one that's not hypothetical. Here's a real one. The government—of which you were a member—was formed at this time 10 years ago. Almost literally the first action that it undertook was to cancel the northern gateway pipeline by order in council. Do you support that decision to cancel the then conditionally approved Pacific pipeline?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I'm looking forward to where we can move as a country, and that's where I think Canadians are right now. Canadians want to see how we can build Canada and a strong economy for Canadians, and that we do it in a way that builds a strong future—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

You see how your credibility is compromised on this. Your government killed the pipeline that was approved 10 years ago. You spent 10 years opposing pipelines. Your own website says that you have taken a strong stance against oil sands expansion. Now you want us to take you at your word that you now support energy expansion in Canada.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I've been pretty consistent in all of my answers to you. I would say that, again, Canada has a role to play as an energy superpower, and in doing that—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

I have one final question, and the time is very limited.

Do you recognize the federal government's responsibility, that it has a right and in fact a responsibility, if a project is in the national interest, to declare it so? Do you support the notion that the federal government has a right to declare something in the national interest?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

We passed the Building Canada Act, which is an important piece of legislation to do what Canadians are looking for in this moment, which is to build our country and to look towards projects of national interest. There is a process that fits within that, with criteria built into the legislation.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

Does that mean that provinces have a veto, or does the federal government have primacy?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

The legislation sets out five criteria, including indigenous consultations, including Canada's climate objectives and also including factors towards our economic—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

Yes or no, does the federal government have a right to declare projects in the national interest?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

We have the Building Canada Act, which has specific criteria and a process built into it that needs to be followed.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

You're failure to respond “yes” leads us to conclude that you think that premiers may have a veto.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

My answer is that we have legislation, which we passed I believe with your support, that actually sets out what the rules are as to how that happens.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Crowfoot, AB]

Can you affirm now for the committee that, yes, the government has primacy and has the right to declare a project in the national interest?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I'm saying right now that we have passed legislation that's clear.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karina Gould]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

Thank you, Minister Dabrusin.

That concludes the time for this round.

We'll go to Mr. Turnbull on the Liberal side for six minutes.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks.

Minister Dabrusin, it's great to have you here, and your team, who I know support you every day in your work. I believe very much in your work as Minister of Environment and Climate Change.

I want to ask you about climate competitiveness or carbon competitiveness, whichever you prefer. As we try to diversify trade with many countries around the world, I note that many of Canada's trade partners have an industrial carbon pricing mechanism. Many of them, especially in Europe, are saying that they will apply carbon border adjustment mechanisms to Canada's trade. There are over 50 countries in the world that have sustainable finance taxonomies, which also essentially categorize investment around the world in terms of what is green or what is considered green investment.

I want to connect these two concepts here. Canada is diversifying trade, which is obviously one of the things we're up to in order to build a more resilient economy as we're subject to a trade and tariff war that we didn't choose, and we're looking to do more trade with these partners around the world. If we don't remain competitive from a climate and carbon perspective, how is Canada going to thrive in this new world order?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you for the question.

I know that you've done so much work when it comes to sustainable finance and in that space, so it's great to get a question from you about that.

Exactly as you're saying, what we're seeing is that the global economy is moving to a low-carbon economy. We see it with policies in different countries, and you've mentioned a few. Countries are adopting industrial carbon pricing, but not only that. We're also seeing that some of our trade partners, like the EU and the U.K., are looking at putting in place carbon border adjustments. What that does is it prefers for importation products that have an industrial carbon price going in.

If we want to be able to access these global markets, it puts us at an advantage to have a strong industrial carbon price. What we're seeing is that, overall, as the world moves to where they're going to put their investments, having low-carbon products gives us an edge, and that's a decision our country faces right now.

I believe that our new government is making the decision to move ahead and be able to access these markets to get ahead, rather than falling behind where the pace is going.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

If I'm interpreting you correctly, what you are saying is that if we don't remain climate competitive, we jeopardize both those trade relationships and the potential for new green investment to come into Canada. Is that not correct?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

That is correct. In fact, one of the conversation points that come up a lot when I talk with different industries is that Canada can be a preferred location for investment because we have such a clean electricity grid. We have one of the cleanest grids in the entire world. We're at 84% clean electricity. That is something that investors, when they're looking at where to move their businesses, where they want to invest.... They want to invest in an economy that is moving towards low carbon.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you. In conversations I've had, quite a number of groups have echoed your sentiments.

In terms of our emissions reduction plan, how much of our planned emissions reduction will be driven by the industrial carbon price that Canada has in place? If my memory serves me correctly, it's a significant amount of our emissions reduction.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

An effective industrial carbon price is actually one of our largest drivers to reducing emissions. It's one of the most effective. Also, with regard to value for carbon, it's one of the cheapest ways of doing that, for increasing investments in moving to low-carbon technologies.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I met with the concrete and cement association, which is doing great work. It said that it actually wants the industrial carbon price to be even stronger in Canada, to be strengthened as a system.

Can you speak to whether there is any work being done to look at options for doing that?