Fisheries Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

How do you become a level-2 fisherman?

[Larry Peddle]

For a level 2, I understand you have to fish for a number of years, and you have to be active in the fishing industry, not the sealing industry. You have to be a core fisherman.

I'm not knocking the fishermen, don't get me wrong, but it was very frustrating that I couldn't sign on someone when I had the required skills to operate that boat.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Mr. Butler.

[Hedley Butler]

I can probably answer the question about how you become a level-2 fisherman. Years ago, when you first started off, you had a part-time licence. The fishermen of Newfoundland and Labrador are professionals just like an electrician is a professional. You have to go through certain schools; you have to fish for so long, and you work up through the system. You fish as an apprentice, you go to level 1, and then you become a level 2. After you become a level 2, you can buy a core licence. It's very simple.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Kamp.

I know we're out of time, but we're going to take a little more time.

Some of the members have some quick questions that are not going to take three or four minutes in preamble. Why don't we start, and any member with another question can certainly feel free to ask it.

Mr. Byrne.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Thanks, gentlemen.

The three-year management plan was introduced a few years ago--the rolling plan--where there's 975,000 animals that can be taken over a three-year period, basically. On average, that's 325,000 in any one particular year, but allowing rollover between years. I think that has been very helpful to the industry.

I want you to talk a bit about opening and closing times and fleet quotas. The whole objective here is to be able to get as many seals as possible at the best possible price, and to manage the fishery as reasonably as possible. Is it helpful or hurtful to the seal fishery to have different opening and close times, different fleet quotas, and so on?

What do you think, John?

[John Gillett]

I think in our situation in area 6, the rollover is all right; there's not a problem with it.

I lost my train of thought. What was the question?

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

The opening and closing times.... There's a three-year management plan with a rollover, so what you don't catch this year, or if there's quota left in the water this year, you can move it over to next year. That seems to be a really sensible or practical way to manage any fishery, not just seals, but other fisheries as well. But each year we seem to get in.... I think someone said—I can't remember who—that 20,000 seals were left in the water unnecessarily this year. It seemed you were saying that's because of the intense regulation, the micro-management of this industry.

Is it helpful? Is it hurtful? Some small-boat fishermen like it in some instances, but sometimes they don't; big-boat fishermen like it in some instances, and sometimes they don't. It all depends. Should we have more of it, or should we just open it up?

[John Gillett]

I think you should open it up. I think the opening of the season for us has been put forward and forward because of the ice conditions; the ice is melting faster and we're losing a lot of seals because of it. I think we should go back to at least April 8 and open it then.

But as for the rollover, I agree with it. If it's not killed, we'll roll it over for the next year, but everybody's going to have to speak for their own zone. I mean, what's good for me in area 6 is probably not good for somebody in area 4, or something like that.

I certainly think we should be allowed to hire sealers from other areas, but as the regulation states now, if I've got a person on my vessel from area 5 he's got to cease when the quota in area 5.... Although he is on my boat, he's got to stop; I've got to put him ashore.

Where did they get all this?

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

He's a shareman or a—

[John Gillett]

He's a shareman; he's only working on my boat. My boat is licensed for area 6. Right? But if I've got a fellow from area 5, he's got to stop.

We were sealing the other year and we stopped on a Friday for a count. We had to stop Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. We stopped hunting seals for three days, and were waiting, all ready, for it to open again. All of a sudden we saw two more boats coming up where we were. Well, that's fine, you know, you're not allowed to kill any seals, so that's all right. We'll share our seals; that's not a problem. All of a sudden they started killing seals. They were from area 5; we were from area 6. They killed all the seals around us and left.

I mean, that's ridiculous.

[Jim Winter]

It keeps Ottawa happy.

[John Gillett]

I don't know who it keeps happy, but it sure as hell doesn't keep us happy.

[Gerry Byrne, Liberal, Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL]

Thanks. That's good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

I'm not sure it keeps Ottawa happy either.

Anyway, Mr. Blais.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Mr. Butler, I'd like you to provide more details on the seals' diet.

I know that seals eat cod, or that they ate cod, because there's less of it now, but they also eat other things. Do you observe that they're now eating more crab or other species such as lobster?

[Hedley Butler]

First of all, I've got to correct you there that there's less cod. In my book, there's not less cod. Years ago we used to put out 40 gillnets and probably get 3,000 to 4,000 pounds of cod, and now we put out one net and we get 1,200 pounds of cod. So there's not less cod, so don't kid yourself. Don't let anybody kid you, because now in Bonavista Bay there are more species of fish than you've ever seen. The problem we have--and I speak about codfish, mackerel, and squid--is we can't sell it. This year has been a booming year for fishermen in the area where I live, but we can't sell anything any more. I don't know what happened. Millions of people in the world are starving to death, but we can't sell anything.

The last few years we've been seeing seals eat codfish, with just the belly part eaten out, lumpfish, belly part eaten out--miles and miles on the bottom of the ocean where seals had eaten it and left it. We see them with salmon in their mouths. We've seen them with capelin. I never did see them with any crabs. But I have experienced a harp seal down as far as 180 fathom of water in the gillnet.

If we don't control the seals--and this is another big part, probably something we never touched on--if the Government of Canada gives in to the IFAW and says we're going to close the seal fishery, every other stock.... I can air a statement that came on the radio not long ago that said in 2048 the oceans will be clean. The oceans will be cleaned by the seals, because they're millions. They're not thousands, they're millions. And if we don't control them....

All we're asking for is whatever the market can sustain, that's what we want to kill. That's all we're asking for.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Anyone else?

Mr. Manning. We'll come back to you, Mr. Lunney.

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

I want to ask Mr. Gillett two quick questions.

How many buyers do you have in your area for seal products? That's the first part of my question. I guess you're aware of the plans for 2008 with regard to the processing and the possibility of forthcoming regulations that all seal products be processed here in the province. Maybe someone else can answer too, but it's just from a feedback point of view. Trying to get the best dollar value for the pelts that are up now but at the same time trying to create employment as well in the province is kind of a see-saw thing we're always involved in here. There's always concern about competition when we get back there; that was the big issue.

I wondered from a sealing industry point of view, because I'm not totally familiar with it in my area, how do you see that unfolding? Are there concerns within your groups?

[John Gillett]

There's not a problem with the buyers. If we had as many buyers for fish as what we have for seals, we'd be all right.

You take so long to ask a question, I forget what you said. I dealt with your first one. What was your second one?

[Fabian Manning, Conservative, Avalon, NL]

With regard to 2008, the new regulations are going to come in that all seal products will have to be processed in the province. My only concern with that is are you going to put the few buyers you have now that are creating the competition at the end of the wharf for you fellows, that are keeping the price up and making it sustainable, or are you concerned that some of the companies will be taken out?

[John Gillett]

Obviously. In the province now, we have so many fish plants and they want to eliminate some of them. When they go, we'll have to have something in their place. I can see what's going to happen there: if they don't pay the price for the seals, Quebec is going to get them. We'll come to Quebec; we'll come somewhere else. We have to have competition, and it looks like it's being taken away, almost like it's being taken away along with the fish, and that's why we get such a low price on our fish.

[Hedley Butler]

I don't agree with taking away our competition. I don't care where it's to. I know the people of Newfoundland and Labrador want to make a living too, but we also have to make a living. Once you take away our competition, you can forget the fishermen. We're not going out there. There were years we wouldn't go at the seal fishery because there was no competition. But we've got competition--leave it there. The majority of the processors around this island are getting their fair share of the seals now.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gerald Keddy]

Thank you, Mr. Manning, and thank you to all of our presenters and members on the committee.

I would like to leave you with a couple of thoughts. We have studied this issue in the past, I think twice actually, at the fisheries and oceans committee. We are studying it again. I am not about to prejudge the committee and what we'll bring in for a report, but I can tell you that in the past we've been very supportive of the industry.

As chair, I'll tell you that governments have struggled with the issue and are continuing to do that, but our job is not to prejudge what any government is going to do. Our job is to try to present them with some alternatives.

On that comment, Mr. Winter, I'd be very interested in hearing more testimony, from you in particular. That testimony could be in written form. It could certainly be kept confidential and in camera, if that is your wish, and we would be very respectful of anything you would have to put forward to us.

I can tell you this is a difficult issue. I know different people have tried and we've had discussion around the table of how we deal with the hakapik and the image of clubbing the seal. There is no discussion on whether or not it is an acceptable method; it's all about how to deal with the image.

The protesters are problematic. I am not going to give a speech here, but I can tell you that I stepped out of the house one day at the time they were harvesting seal penises for the Asian market and I had a microphone stuck in my face. The question was asked, “What do you think of that?” I said, “You've already killed the seal. You've already sold the skin. You've already harvested whatever meat is harvestable. So if you have another product from this animal that can be sold, why not?”

From that, I got put on Greenpeace's hit list. Most of these letters come from a long way away and I really didn't take them too seriously, but I remember one in particular. I am going to share it with the committee and share it with you. It was from this lady, I think in Colorado but she may have been a little farther south than that. She said she was a 78-year-old grandmother and was absolutely appalled by anybody who would make such a terrible statement. She went on to talk about male mutilation and castration and a number of issues, which I really didn't take kindly to.

You can't deal with that. I agree with your statement. You can't deal with that, and that is something we have to try to deal with as a committee.

Monsieur Blais has been to the European Council. I've been to the European Council. Mr. Simms has been to the European Council. I met with the foreign minister from Belgium, who, by the way, is supportive of the industry but would never say that publicly. We've met with DFAIT. We've met with various ministers, in the previous government and this one, who have been supportive of the industry.

I think we have to sit down and try to come up with some type of strategy that has the potential to work, because what we're on seems to be a slippery slope and is going in the wrong direction.

On that comment, I want to say thank you again for coming. It was excellent information, very informative and useful to our study.

I am going to ask all of our members to stay at the table and I would ask our presenters to stay at the table. I am going to adjourn. We do not allow cameras during the session. We have a couple of people who want to get some pictures. So if we just sit tight for 30 seconds, we can do that.

I am going to adjourn. I'll ask you to sit tight and we will start our next meeting.