Fisheries Committee on March 31st, 2009

[Ken Drake]

That's one of our big concerns. What's happening is that if the fishery doesn't qualify them for EI, for example, they'll go fish at a fishery that's not even economical. They'll try to catch something that might even be in strong decline, to try to qualify for EI. It's sad to say that, but it's true. Everybody has to do what they have to do. We firmly believe that if there was something established that you would automatically qualify...based on, say, 2008, for example; if you qualified in 2008 you would qualify in 2009.

That way it would take pressure off the lobster fisher. For example, a guy goes out fishing lobsters and he hasn't got a very big catch, but he has to go out to catch it to try to have it total enough so that he qualifies. If he didn't have to do that, he could leave his gear set for, say, two days if he had to, and it would be far more economical fuel-wise, bait-wise, and everything else. But if he has to bring in as much income as he possibly can, it forces him on the water, even if it's not economically viable.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

We are quite familiar with that situation. The recommendations that you have put forward and that we should follow up on do not deal exclusively with the conservation of the resource. These are not solutions that are solely aimed at the marketing of the product, but rather at the whole industry.

For example, wharves must be repaired and employment insurance must be re-engineered in order to better suit people's needs rather than hurting them. It is not simply one or two measures but rather a whole set of measures that will allow you to get through this crisis. Am I right in saying that?

[Ed Frenette]

Yes, sir. In terms of the Atlantic fishery, if we take it as a whole as opposed to just Prince Edward Island, I think the fishery is in dire need of a total restructuring. We look at Newfoundland and the situation they face there. Looking at the situation in southwest Nova Scotia and the Bay of Fundy, they have problems of their own. Certainly here in the southern gulf we have serious problems.

By just a rough estimation, we perceive possibly a restructuring cost of about $2 billion to buy out certain vessels and certain fleets and to revamp marketing and processing efforts. It will be a reduction in the number of fishermen, but we suspect in the long run it will be a viable fishery that will continue to earn income not only for the rural coastal communities of this region but also to turn solid profits for fishermen and the processors.

It's a very difficult thing to do, but we see it happening in other industries, whether it's the automobile industry in Ontario or the aerospace industry in Quebec. Unfortunately, the most recent federal budget did not address similar problems in the fishing industry.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Are seals also a problem here? There are ways of getting rid of them, as you can see.

[Ken Drake]

On Prince Edward Island there's not an issue as far as the hunt is concerned. The issue is the fact that the cod fishery, for example, is in a rapid decline, with nobody fishing the cod. I guess that will pretty much tell you that without a seal cull the cod industry is about to completely collapse. It has nothing to do with fishermen fishing cod. So, yes, it's a big issue; seals are a big, big issue.

[Ed Frenette]

I could add to that and say that the major issue here in the southern gulf is the grey seal herd, not the harp seal we hear about in terms of the harvest. It's the grey seal herd. Their primary rookery is Sable Island. This year alone there will be 58,000 pups born on Sable Island. We have no access to that. The issue for us is that we need a cull as well as a commercial hunt in terms of the grey seal herd.

There was a study done around 2001 or 2002 in Prince Edward Island alone by the provincial government that showed seals at that time caused over $6 million worth of damage to fishermen here—lobster traps and other gear—over the course of the fishing season.That's certainly expanded since then. I think the grey seal herd has expanded sevenfold since the late 1970s in the southern gulf.

[Raynald Blais, Bloc, Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, gentlemen, for providing us with some recommendations today.

Ed or Ken, how many buyers were on the Island, say, 15 years ago?

[Ed Frenette]

I couldn't give you a number, Mr. Stoffer, but it's probably triple what is there now.

[Ken Drake]

I don't know the number.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

How many buyers do we have on the Island now?

[Ed Frenette]

In terms of processors, there are only five actual processors. There are other buyers who come in from New Brunswick and buy and ship it back to New Brunswick for processing there, and then there are the so-called commission buyers who may sell to the live market and then sell part of their purchase to some processor or others.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

You had talked about the Ocean Choice agreement. I know it's a provincial issue, but for clarification, could you advise the committee of the nuts and bolts of that?

[Ken Drake]

Basically the agreement says, for example, if I had a fish plant that needed work done and the provincial government gave me $100,000 to upgrade my plant, they would have to give Ocean Choice $400,000. They would have to give them four times what any other plant gets, regardless of whether they need it for any work or whatever.

Also, there are no plants that can be reopened. Even plants that are being closed down can't be reopened by other people. There are no new licences to be given out. So they have a monopoly on that.

It was consolidation of processing facilities that created Polar Foods, which was bought out by Ocean Choice. That's a lot of plants that were consolidated and are now being closed.

I can remember, for example, where I live in Morell, there were two fish plants at the wharf and another fish plant in Morell. All three of those plants are closed. When you talk about a glut of fish, there were a lot of vehicles there and a lot of people employed at those plants. It's only a small harbour, but they handled a lot of fish. I think it's sad that now those fish have to go to one plant that says they can't handle them all; they're having a glut.

[Ed Frenette]

There is a similar consolidation taking place in New Brunswick processing facilities as well. The Barry Group from Newfoundland purchased a number of facilities and just simply closed them down. Now I think they're left with three operating plants, and we don't know if they're going to operate this lobster season or not.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

The other concern is that the media reports out of Southwest Nova were indicating that the fishermen are now talking about issues of a lobster marketing board, a supply management system. I have to admit I haven't heard anything of PEIFA on those discussions.

They're not saying they want to have these types of systems; they're just saying they want to look into those types of systems. And yet a few years ago when I had asked the question, everyone said, “No, no. We don't want anything to do with lobster marketing boards or supply management. We like it the way it is.” But obviously with times changing, opinions may change as well.

I'd just like your view or your opinion on that.

[Ken Drake]

Basically they changed because the federal government threw some money into the pot, for starters, but the money for this group from each province that is studying the market has run out. They're out of money already. They had to spend it by the end of March.

I think they did some good things. I saw some of the work they did in the short period of time they were at it, and they were on the right track. For this coming season, I don't think it's going to serve much of a purpose. For the long term, I don't know if that type of a marketing board is what we need, but we need something that is going to change the whole scope of where they're being marketed.

Obviously there's something wrong with the marketing system right now. My question is what is being done to improve it? It's easy to stay with an old way, but the old way isn't working anymore.

I'll give you an example. A group from Nova Scotia, in this marketing study, went to Alberta. They went to a supermarket that had live market lobsters in the tank. They filmed it, and it showed a housewife going by with her kid who wanted to put his hand in the water. The mother hauled the kid's hand back out of the water, but it was like they were travelling through the zoo. They were looking at these lobsters, and they were interesting and everything, but it was as though the mother was saying let's move on, because we have to go get some Kraft Dinner now. What they realized from it, after they started to interview some of these people, was that people were saying, “I hear lobsters are really good, but I have no idea how to even cook them.”

What came out of the study was simply that they needed a monitor there with a film showing how to actually cook the lobster. They needed a pot somewhere handy that the person could buy to actually cook the lobster in, and maybe a bit of salt, and it might pick up from there.

It's just as one person said--how many people here know how to cook possum?

The other thing is that out there in the world right now is this desire not to touch an animal that's alive. There are groups that are against killing cows, against killing sheep or whatever, and there always will be, but scientists have told us--and I want to make sure that this is good and clear--that they have done studies on lobster, and when you put a lobster in boiling water, it is for a fraction of a second that it actually might even feel anything because it's goes brain-dead instantly when it hits the boiling water, so therefore there is no pain involved for the lobster.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I do know that my colleague from Alberta, Mr. Calkins, definitely knows how to cook lobsters.

[Ken Drake]

Actually I'm not sure you'd have to go all the way to Alberta to find somebody who doesn't know how to cook them.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

That's so even in Nova Scotia.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

Thank you, Mr. Drake.

Mr. Kamp, please.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you gentlemen, for...[Technical difficulty--Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Rodney Weston]

[Technical difficulty--Editor]...could I have the members take their seats, please?

Sorry about that, Mr. Drake and Mr. Frenette. I guess you can't control everything in life. We had some technical difficulties here.

Mr. Kamp, you have the floor.

[Randy Kamp, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge—Mission, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you again for coming here today and helping us to understand these issues a little bit better.

May I say as well that it's good to see the community interest in this topic? It's very good to have so many here.

We're on the government side, obviously, so we are interested in understanding a little more about this. Because you've used the words “government intervention” and so on, I really want to focus there, but just to begin, you mentioned, and Mr. Frenette did as well, the figures that DFO provided. They're in the renewal of the Atlantic fisheries report, in terms of the kinds of net revenues and the different LFAs that surround P.E.I.

For example, there's quite a difference from 63,000 in LFA 24 to 7,000 in LFA 25. Can you tell us what the difference is? What makes for a profitable enterprise, an LFA 24, and what makes it certainly less profitable in the others?