Fisheries Committee on Jan. 30th, 2019

[Colin Fraser]

I know that on the east coast—and perhaps Mr. Anderson would know about this—the value in, for example, a lobster licence was deemed by the courts in the Saulnier case to be similar to a profit à prendre, in which case there is actual value in the ability to transfer the licence.

Are you suggesting that on the west coast it's treated differently as far as the value in the licences themselves?

[Rebecca Reid]

I'm simply reflecting the feedback I've heard from fishermen. As for how the banks interact with fishermen, I don't have any direct knowledge of that.

[Colin Fraser]

I represent an area in western Nova Scotia where, obviously, the fishery is the backbone of our economy, and I speak to fishermen all the time. Oftentimes, with the department, they feel like they're not being heard. I'd like to hear what level of engagement and consultation there is with the fishing industry on the west coast, in order to understand what they're feeling, before any changes or enforcement policies are made.

[Rebecca Reid]

Over the past couple of decades, there have been a number of studies undertaken to look at any number of issues with the fishery, and one of them is exactly that engagement piece.

In the early 1990s, a policy paper on new directions set out 12 principles, one of which spoke directly to what was called “improved decision making”. Based on that policy document, the department created a new consultative framework that, in my view, is quite an elegant way of getting input and advice from the local communities and local fishermen, right up to the broader multi-stakeholder harvest groups.

We have an integrated harvest advisory group that comes together to talk about common issues, but it's fed through the various fishermen groups and interest groups in order to come up with a big, integrated approach. That advice is then fed into the development of integrated fisheries management plans, some of which I have the authority to approve. For others, it's the minister. Ultimately the minister makes final allocation decisions on everything.

We have a very comprehensive consultative process that we use to engage with fishermen, other interest groups and first nations, for all species.

[Colin Fraser]

Thank you. I'm glad to hear that.

Ms. Reid, I just want to go back to the issue that you raised about party-based licensing versus vessel-based licensing. I'm not sure I quite understand the rationale for having those two different systems. I take it that the vessel-based licensing means that you can have more licences on one boat, and they have to stay together in, as you termed it, “marriage”, and that helps reduce the fleet.

I guess I don't really understand the rationale for that versus the party-based licensing, so if you could explain that I would appreciate it.

[Rebecca Reid]

There is a difference between the stacking provisions and the licensing rules. We have two different types of licences, as you've already reflected, these vessel-based licences versus the party-based. It's essentially how the licences are held or owned. If you have a vessel-based licence, you can stack, but you don't have to stack. Some licences are defined by the vessel and some are defined by the entity. How that evolved—

[Colin Fraser]

Sorry, by the entity?

[Rebecca Reid]

By the individual who owns it. For example, first nations communal commercial fishing licences are held by the first nations entity. They can assign a vessel each year to fish that licence, whereas with a vessel-based licence, the vessel is fixed and then people can fish on that vessel. It's the reverse.

[Colin Fraser]

With either type of licensing, does the individual operating the vessel have to be identified to get the licence transferred or is it irrelevant to the outfit?

[Andrew Thomson]

You have to identify an operator with a vessel to have a fishing licence identified with it, but you can have—

[Colin Fraser]

A different person—

[Andrew Thomson]

Yes, you can designate someone else. You don't have to be the owner to be the fisher.

[Colin Fraser]

Okay, that's great. Thanks very much.

Ms. Donkersloot, you mentioned the ability of younger people getting into the various fisheries. I'm wondering if you can talk a little about their access to financing. I think you mentioned there may be a loans program in Alaska, and I wonder if you could expand on that, please.

[Rachel Donkersloot]

A number of loans programs have been created in the state of Alaska following limited entry when it was clear that rural and low-income fishermen in particular were disadvantaged in a system that uses the free market to allocate the right to a public resource.

Over time, it was clear that those programs primarily benefited urban-based fishermen. A number of factors contributed to that: geographic factors, cultural and language barriers, access to credit or credit history and higher borrowing costs for rural fishermen. New programs address the limits of older programs but there is a suite of loans programs.

There are also regional programs designed to benefit specific regions. One in particular is an innovative solution, and it's attached to our community development quota, CDQ, program. In the case of Bristol Bay, the CDQ group is using revenues from the royalties of the federal fisheries to finance a loan program to support rural fishermen in the region. To date, it's brought back more than 50 salmon permits to the region. With that loan program, you have to be denied a loan from a traditional banking institution to qualify. It's meant to create greater parity and access to financing. It has been well documented in the case of Alaska that our rural fishermen are primarily the ones disadvantaged in these types of situations.

Many of those loan programs I cite in my speaking notes, and you can read about them in the “Turning the Tide” report.

[Colin Fraser]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair]

We'll now get into our five-minute round. We've got quite a bit of time left so with the permission of the committee we'll continue with five-minute slots until we get close to running out of time. If there's time for a question to be asked, I'll certainly allow time for it to be answered.

Now we go back to the Conservative party, with Mr. Doherty.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for the officials. On the Fisheries and Oceans website, it's stated that by 2017 the department will develop the infrastructure to collect and analyze data to determine economic viability and social impacts of the various groundfish fisheries.

Has this infrastructure been established? If so, has DFO carried out economic viability and social impact studies of the various groundfish fisheries in B.C. with the data gathered?

[Andrew Thomson]

Yes. Within our regional policy and economics unit, we have an economics unit that has been gathering data as to the economics of the fishery, things such as market access, number of participants, average lease rates, average prices being paid and so on. We're collating or developing a report of that data in order to provide a picture of the current economics of the fishery. That includes things such as reporting of where individuals who report on their tax returns as being commercial fishers reside, so where the majority of commercial fishermen are residing, what their annual income is, things that would go to the social aspects of it. That report is currently in draft form, but it should be available in the near future.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Do you have statistics with respect to the illegal and unreported fishing going on, on our Pacific coast?

[Rebecca Reid]

We do have some statistics, but I don't have them available. That would be something we would have to get back to you on.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

How big of an issue is it?

[Rebecca Reid]

It was a big issue and has been decreased, but there is still something to be said. There have been a few instances of big busts related to that, so it is something we're monitoring and we do have enforcement activities under way.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

How detrimental could that be to our fish stocks?

[Rebecca Reid]

It certainly is something to pay attention to.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Dr. Donkersloot, is illegal, unreported fishing a major issue in your state as well?