Fisheries Committee on March 22nd, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to the continuation of our study about the vessel length policy issue. A motion was brought to us by Mr. Ken McDonald from the beautiful riding of Avalon, almost as beautiful as mine.

We're going to start out today with our first round. We have two rounds today.

We're going to hear from our officials from the Department of Transport. We have Jane Weldon, Director General, Marine Safety and Security. Ma'am, it's good to see you this morning.

We have Luc Tremblay, Executive Director, Domestic Vessel Regulatory Oversight and Boating Safety. That must be some size of a business card you have, sir, with that large title.

The Transportation Safety Board is also with us today. We have Jean Laporte, Chief Operating Officer, and Marc-André Poisson, Director, Marine Investigations. Gentlemen, it's good to see you.

We thank you all for coming here.

The way we normally do this is that each group gets up to 10 minutes to do its initial presentation, followed by questions from our members of Parliament.

We're going to start with the Department of Transportation.

Ms. Weldon, please proceed.

[Jane Weldon, Director General, Marine Safety and Security, Department of Transport]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for this opportunity to address the House of Commons standing committee.

As Transport Canada's Director General of Marine Safety and Security, I am well aware of the importance of the issues before the committee.

Transport Canada plays a key role in ensuring the safety, security, environmental responsibility, and economic stability of Canada's transportation system. We are the second largest regulatory department in the Government of Canada, and the department is responsible for legislation and regulations that govern all modes of transportation.

By way of contrast, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans' mandate focuses on managing Canada's fisheries and supporting economic growth in the Maritimes fishery sector, contributing to sustainable aquatic ecosystems, and ensuring safe and secure waters.

DFO is responsible for fisheries management regulations, policies, and plans pursuant to the Fisheries Act and associated regs. DFO, obviously through the Canadian Coast Guard, is also responsible for search and rescue of fishing and other vessels, and marine communications and traffic services pursuant to the Oceans Act. Transport Canada and DFO work very closely together on many files.

Transport Canada's marine safety and security program develops and administers a significant number of regulations and their associated operational policies, guidelines, and procedures. These are all designed to advance the safety and security of our marine transportation system while ensuring it remains environmentally responsible and economically sustainable.

We are responsible for creating and enforcing rules to define minimum standards of safety in the design, manufacturing, and operation of all components of the marine sector and ensuring the qualifications of seafarers. We also fulfill an oversight function by issuing licences, certificates, and permits; conducting inspections and audits; and where necessary, enforcing the various provisions under our regulations.

Marine safety and security is the lead for Canada at the International Maritime Organization and other international marine bodies that establish international rules for the maritime industry. International conventions negotiated at the International Maritime Organization and adopted by Canada are reflected in Canadian legislation and regulations governing marine transportation.

The legislative framework for the marine sector consists primarily of the Canada Shipping Act, 2001; the Arctic Waters Pollution Prevention Act; the Pilotage Act; and the Marine Transportation Security Act. Underneath those, there are various regulations. Most important, I think, to this committee would be the fishing vessel safety regulations.

On July 13, 2017, phase one of the new Fishing Vessel Safety Regulations came into force. These regulations apply to fishing vessels that are not more than 24.4 metres in length and not more than 150 gross tonnes. These regulations set out new requirements for safety equipment, safe operating procedures, and vessel stability based on a vessel's hull length, type of operation, and type of voyage. For example, personal life-saving appliances are now required for all small fishing vessels according to their hull length.

Phase 1 of the regulations addresses a number of outstanding Transportation Safety Board recommendations regarding fishing vessel safety and is expected to reduce fishing vessel-related fatalities. The new fishing vessel safety regulations also aim to address the current renewal of the fishing fleet.

In recent years, many owners of fishing vessels have opted to replace their aging vessels with new construction in order to take advantage of changes to the policies on vessel replacement made by DFO, or for improved efficiency and capability. As a majority of the fleet has yet to be renewed, the changes to the rules put forth by DFO are drivers that further justify the amendments we will be making to fishing vessel safety regs.

Phase two will amend the Fishing Vessel Safety Regulations to update the provisions addressing the requirements for vessel construction of small fishing vessels.

Transport Canada continues to work closely with other government departments and leaders in the fishing industry to ensure the new regulations keep pace with the times and protect fishers, vessels, and the marine environment.

The goal of the Government of Canada is to implement regulations that promote both the safety of mariners and fishing vessels and the protection of the marine environment, while refraining from placing unnecessary barriers to ensuring an economically viable fishing industry. Transport Canada focuses on preventing accidents wherever possible, protecting people on board in the event of an incident, and making it possible to detect vessels in distress. As you can imagine, we take our mandate very seriously and will continue to update our regulatory regime in the best interests of Canadians.

Merci.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Ms. Weldon.

Mr. Laporte, you have 10 minutes. Please go ahead.

[Jean Laporte, Chief Operating Officer, Transportation Safety Board of Canada]

Good morning everyone.

Mr. Chair, honourable members, thank you for inviting the Transportation Safety Board of Canada to appear today.

My name is Jean Laporte. I am the Chief Operating Officer. Captain Marc-André Poisson, our Director of Marine Investigations, accompanies me.

We are pleased that the committee has undertaken a study to examine commercial fishing vessel length and licensing policies in Atlantic Canada. For the TSB, commercial fishing safety is one of the key safety issues that needs to be addressed to make Canada's transportation system even safer. Over the past five years, there have been 43 deaths because of fishing-related accidents. That's an average of 8.6 lives lost every year.

A few years ago, the TSB conducted a safety issues investigation into fishing vessel safety in order to understand the root causes underlying the loss of life on commercial fishing vessels. This investigation identified a number of systemic factors that require attention, such as vessel stability, life-saving appliances, fisheries resource management measures, training, fatigue, safe work practices, and the regulatory approach to safety.

In light of these findings, the TSB called for concerted and coordinated actions by federal and provincial authorities and leaders in the fishing community to address these interconnected factors. While we acknowledge that Transport Canada and the fishing community have taken a number of safety actions, more needs to be done. Fisheries resource management is one key area where little progress has been made.

Let us look at a few examples of the safety problems we've identified in our investigations.

First, as you know, Transport Canada regulates the safety of fishing vessels whereas the Department of Fisheries and Oceans regulates the fishing activities. In some instances, the TSB found that the vessels involved in an occurrence were not registered with Transport Canada, but were granted a fishing licence by DFO. Recent examples of this include fishing vessels Sea Serpent and Pop's Pride.

This points to a gap in the coordination of regulatory oversight that could potentially result in licensed fishermen fishing in an unsafe vessel. Under a coordinated approach, DFO could routinely verify TC registration of fishing vessels prior to granting a fishing licence, which could help resolve this issue. In British Columbia, DFO has implemented a regional policy to ensure that commercial fishing vessels registering with DFO have also registered with TC. However, this policy has not been adopted in Atlantic Canada.

Second, the work of the two departments overlaps in some areas and, if not well coordinated, can result in confusion and challenges for fishermen. For instance, the TSB observed that DFO and Transport Canada use different methods to determine a vessel's length. Vessel length can be measured by overall length, waterline length or “bow stem to rudder stock” length. Each method is different and yields different results for fishermen to understand and apply, as they seek to comply with the rules. Harmonization of rules and processes by TC and DFO could simplify things for fishermen.

Thirdly, when granting a fishing licence to a vessel, DFO requires that the vessel's length conform to the length restrictions set out by that licence. The length restrictions are in place as a means to limit the vessel's operating capacity, but DFO does not require an assessment of the vessel for its intended purpose.

The TSB has found that some fishermen modify their vessels by cutting off the tip of the bow, extending the length of the stern, or by widening the vessel in order to maximize their efficiency while remaining within these length restrictions. These modifications can compromise vessel stability and lead to accidents. For example, the TSB's investigation into the Pacific Siren revealed that the length of the vessel's buoyant hull met licence length restrictions. However, a stern extension was necessary to accommodate the 300 prawn traps allocated to the licence, and the owner modified his vessel accordingly.

Finally, fisheries resource management measures prescribe rules that govern how, when, and how much fish can be harvested. These rules often create economic pressures that can lead fishermen to take risks in order to maximize their catch and their income, for instance, weekly quotas instead of seasonal ones, unpredictable closing dates for a given season, and rules on how frequently nets must be attended.

The recent TSB investigation into the fishing vessel Pop's Pride is a situation where the crew decided to sail in adverse weather and sea conditions, likely due to several factors related to fishing resource management.

Another occurrence, in Placentia Bay in 2015, involved the loss of three lives. In that case, the master chose to use his secondary vessel, a smaller, seven-metre open boat, while his primary vessel was being repaired. He was not permitted to use a third vessel that he owned, because that vessel was licensed to his spouse and could only be used to fish her quota and 150 traps.

To our knowledge, DFO does not have a process in place to assess effectively the impacts of their policies on safety and help prevent tragic situations like these. Safety should not be an afterthought that comes after the preservation of fish stocks and the commercial viability of the industry when developing fisheries resource management measures. Safety must be an equally important consideration.

These examples clearly show the need for changes in policies. We believe that Transport Canada and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans need to work more closely together to improve commercial fishing safety. TC and DFO must ensure harmonization, consistency, and cohesion in their policies, rules, and processes pertaining to commercial fishing. Safety oversight activities must be properly coordinated. Information must be provided to fishermen in a user-friendly format.

Finally, the two departments must work together, in partnership with leaders in the fishing community, to develop and implement a national strategy for establishing and promoting a strong safety culture within the fishing industry.

We are prepared to answer your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Laporte.

We will begin with Joël Godin, whom we seldom see around these parts.

Mr. Godin, welcome to the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

You are the member for Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier. Is that correct?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

That is indeed correct.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to commend you on the calibre of your French.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

I try.

That's very kind. Thank you.

Ms. Nassif, you represent the Vimy riding. Is that correct?

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Vimy Ridge, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

It's probably the shortest riding name in the country, but it certainly is the most beautiful.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Exactly, and my first name is short, too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Your first name is short, and you're looking at a guy who's just simply short.

That being said, let's move on, shall we?

Apropos the study, we're going to move to the mover of the study.

Mr. McDonald, you have seven minutes.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you to our witnesses for taking the time to appear before us today.

Mr. Laporte, maybe I understood you wrong. Does DFO use one way to determine length overall and the Transportation Safety Board uses a different method?

[Jean Laporte]

DFO and Transport Canada use different methods, depending on which regulations and which rules we're looking at. Yes.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Okay, but you would think everybody would be on the same page with regard to safety, instead of using different rules.

[Jean Laporte]

We agree, and that's the point we're making before the committee.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Ms. Weldon, does Transport Canada use universal rules from coast to coast to coast when it comes to vessel length and vessel regulations?

[Jane Weldon]

We do.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

We're finding that DFO doesn't use universal rules across the country, and even in regions they may have a different rule in Nova Scotia from what they have in Newfoundland and Labrador, where I'm from. I find it a bit odd and irritating to some degree that they would do it that way. I suppose it's a bit irritating for fishermen when they can look at neighbouring provinces being able to use a larger vessel, which I would think would be much safer, rather than being restricted in size because of simply being in Newfoundland and the rules being different there than they are anywhere else.

Do you think it would be safer for fishermen to be in a larger vessel or to be restricted to a smaller vessel simply because the policy states that's the one they should be using?

[Jane Weldon]

You can't actually say that inherently a longer boat is a safer boat. There are a lot of factors having to do with the boat's construction. I mean the vessel's construction.

Every Maritimer in Canada will be saying, “She calls it a boat”.

It has to do with the vessel's construction, how it's used, how many crew you have, and the rest of it.

Certainly there is a perception that on average a longer boat is likely to be larger, heavier, and, if properly crewed, on average likely safer. One cannot say that, because it depends a great deal on whether people have made amendments and modifications to vessels and have had their vessel stability assessed. There are a lot of vessel construction considerations to determine what actually is the safest vessel.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Mr. Laporte, you mentioned that DFO will issue a fishing licence for a vessel without even seeing the vessel. They don't know the condition of it. They don't know its stability. They don't know if it's a wooden boat or a steel-constructed boat. Do you think that's a sensible way to be issuing a licence?

[Marc-André Poisson, Director, Marine Investigations, Transportation Safety Board of Canada]

The process is done on the west coast, and we feel that the west coast is doing a good job on that. We do wonder why it's not done the same way by DFO on the east coast. If it works on the west coast, it should be able to work on the east coast.

[Ken McDonald, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

To me, safety should be the utmost, and a fisherman should have somebody to tell them, “Look, it's not safe to use that particular boat” versus, “ Go wherever you're going with it.” You would think that would be DFO's concern as well, or I would hope so. Hopefully we can make some changes going forward.

You mentioned a vessel that had some problems because of an extension on it, and I know in Nova Scotia, for example, for a forty-four eleven you can put on a five-foot extension under a platform as long as it's removable. They started doing that in Newfoundland and Labrador, and then it got changed and they were telling people, “No, we're not going to allow it anymore.”

Do you think the five-foot extension under the platform would be a safety issue, or would you actually have to see how it's constructed and attached to be able to tell that?

[Jean Laporte]

I think you have to look at each case, but essentially having an extension by itself is not necessarily a safety problem if it's done right. If someone is considering modifying a vessel, there needs to be an assessment of those changes and the impact on that vessel and its stability, its operation, and so on. If the assessments are done properly and the calculations and the procedures are adjusted accordingly, there is no problem with doing some forms of extensions. Often we find that extensions are made, there is no stability assessment, there is no risk assessment of the extra weight that might be carried, and so on, and that leads to the accidents that we end up investigating.