Fisheries Committee on May 12th, 2021

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

In terms of indigenous free, prior and informed consent, we saw the decision to close the Discovery Islands fish farms was made with direct consultation with the local first nations. Many of the affected nations welcomed that decision the minister ultimately made.

Should the decisions of the other chiefs who say they want the fish farms closed also be respected in terms of where you're at and where you want to see fish farming?

How does the government balance the competing interests and concerns from the rights-holding first nations in the area where they have an obligation to consult?

[Chief John M. Smith]

We have to deal with the science and deal with the knowledge.

Mr. Blaney, who is our landlord, is anti-fish farm and he wasn't a fisherman to start with. He was one of the major players in that decision. Cape Mudge and Campbell River hardly got to participate in that, and we certainly didn't. That kind of decision-making just doesn't work for us.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Do you believe that in your territory your voice should be respected and in Chief Blaney's area his voice and his nation should be respected in his territory? Do you believe it should be like that?

[Chief John M. Smith]

Of course, but there's got to be some kind of give and take. We're all neighbours here, but we keep things separate. He got rid of his fish farms and we didn't do anything about that. We didn't force him to keep them even though some of his members wanted them kept.

He shouldn't decide whether we have a farm or not. He hasn't met with us, sir, about it either. We have our office in his reserve here. We're leasing a piece of property from him until our new village is ready.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We'll now go to Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you to each of the witnesses for appearing here. We appreciate your time and your testimony tonight.

I want to start off by asking you a question, Dr. Farrell.

We've heard a lot of witnesses and a lot of testimony has come through the committee. We usually come down to these questions as it relates to what you see as the most effective way that most people can agree upon whereby we can help save the Pacific salmon stocks. What are the practical, tangible things we can do?

We've heard a number of different ideas. In your estimation and in your opinion, what do you feel would be the top two or three things that we should be looking at right now?

[Anthony Farrell]

I would say, number one, if you want the biggest bang for your dollar, stop all fishing. It kills fish. You could potentially bring back a non-retention fishing from an economic point of view, but depending upon the species, you may not want to do it too far upstream on spawning adults. That's the research that we have done.

Number two, stop population growth in British Columbia. The Fraser River happens to go right through the major metropolis. You may or may not be aware of a recent study that's shown that there's a toxic product produced by car tires. Car tires have a compound that stabilizes the rubber, and there's research now in the States showing that a wash of this can kill salmon.

We may, just by driving our cars over the Port Mann Bridge, the Massey bridge, whichever bridge it is....

When I look at the damage to the streams that goes on, I think that we have to be really careful. We've had a great improvement in terms of creating riparian zones, but the north shore of British Columbia isn't home to many salmon populations anymore.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Dr. Farrell. I appreciate that. I just want to hear from the other couple of witnesses on this.

Chief Smith, in your estimation, what do you feel would be the best pathway forward for revitalizing the Pacific salmon stocks?

[Chief John M. Smith]

Mr. Farrell stole my thunder.

I believe that you would have to go to those extremes, and everybody would have to live by it. You're not going to go fishing. You're not going to kill fish. Even with non-retention fishing, you don't know if those fish are going to survive. That's another problem.

Right now, we're in the midst of trying to bring back a river in our territory that the logging industry destroyed. It's called the Fulmore. It used to have massive numbers of fish and a well-stocked sockeye early in the season, and there was no commercial fishing on it, but log jams in the river destroyed that.

There are lots of enemies to wild-stock fish—

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Chief John M. Smith]

—and least of all is my farm.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thanks, Chief Smith.

Madam Bergeron, is there anything you would like to add?

[Myriam Bergeron]

We need to adopt an approach that begins with scientifically determining the main threats to the species. That would enable us afterwards to implement conservation and development plans on a regional basis with local players, in order to respond not only to regional realities and issues, but also to the needs of the various stakeholders, like indigenous communities and the citizens of various towns and cities.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Madam Bergeron.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bragdon.

We'll now go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I believe Mr. Cormier wanted to put a question in here. I'll cede some time to him.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay.

I'll leave that up to the two of you. You have five minutes between you somehow.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

I have a question for Ms. Bergeron.

Ms. Bergeron, I'm from New Brunswick and I frequently go fishing on Quebec rivers. I love the way you manage your rivers. I know that what's going on in British Columbia is different, but what do you think is causing the decline in populations of Atlantic salmon and Pacific salmon species?

It's different here, but can we blame ocean aquaculture, or do you think there are other reasons for the decline in Atlantic and Pacific salmon populations?

[Myriam Bergeron]

Initially, the significant declines were certainly caused by commercial fishing, offshore bycatch and the various ways in which the territory and natural resources were used. Floating logs down rivers, for example, a practice used for many years although not recently, seriously damaged rivers. The consequences are still being felt today.

Aquaculture is certainly an important factor. There is also the whole issue of the territory, including forest management, for which practices are very different in Quebec than they are in New Brunswick. Best practices should be introduced and even improved to limit the impact of forest, municipal and farming activities on rivers.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

So aquaculture in these regions is not the only reason for the decline in Atlantic salmon, and probably Pacific salmon.

[Myriam Bergeron]

It is unequivocally an important factor for Pacific salmon.

Comparisons can be made between locations where Atlantic salmon aquaculture is practised and others where it is not. Even though all these areas are managed in approximately the same fashion, we see significant differences. It's difficult to assign a specific percentage to aquaculture as a factor for the decline in the wild population, but its impact is undeniable.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

I'll turn it back to my colleague, Mr. Hardie.

Thanks for that couple of minutes.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Serge. I have a good question to get in here.

Dr. Farrell, when we look at the Fraser River system, what we've heard so far tends to suggest that most of the real challenges that fish face are in the lower Fraser River, let's say from Hope down to the ocean and then into the inland waters, the Salish Sea. Would you agree with that?

[Anthony Farrell]

I'm not sure where those data are coming from, to be honest. We've done a five-year tracking study of Chilko Lake salmon and their out-migration. The first thing is that we're only measuring the survivors that have been lake reared for one to two years. They normally rear for one year or two years in this very high elevation lake, Chilko.

Over the five years, between 30% and 50% of the fish didn't make it even to the ocean, but most of those died before they got to the Fraser River coming down the Chilcotin system, so that was particularly bad. We saw very little mortality in the lower Fraser from the confluence of the Chilcotin to there.

There have actually been very few studies with a rise, measuring the survival of salmon in the Strait of Georgia. One study recently published—and I can send this to you if you're interested—actually looked at the amount of time that was was spent by sockeye salmon migrating past salmon farms. The first thing was that two-thirds of sockeye went straight up the Johnstone Strait and avoided the Discovery Islands and the farms located there. The ones that actually had receivers that ping.... It's the same sort of little transmitters that ping if you're trying to steal stuff going out of a store. It's the same sort of technology, so you know how long they are around pinging on a salmon farm. They have a range of 200 to 800 metres. It's a matter of minutes. One-third of the fish are passing by salmon farms and they are spending a matter of minutes in association with a salmon farm. That's the period of contact. So whatever contact and impact you're imagining as a risk have to happen within that contact time. That study came out in 2021. That's how limited the knowledge we have is.

I'm not sure about the data you've heard. I haven't listened to all of your committees. You're a very patient committee, trust me. There is a lot of information out there, and I'm not on top of all of it, but I hope that helps a little bit.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

That concludes two rounds of questioning. We have a few minutes left, so I've made an executive decision. I'll allow one quick question for each party. Make it a short question and a short answer, if you could.

Mr. Arnold, you were scheduled to be up next, so I'll assume you're going to go with the quickie.