Evidence of meeting #32 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reid.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Let's continue on. Does anybody want to answer Ms. Strobel's question? Do you feel that you would be blacklisted by coming forward as you have?
5:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Native Fishing Association
There's always potential for that, especially in the Pacific region. That's one of the concerns that I think is important to bring out here.
The Pacific region seems to operate on its own, in absentia of this national mandate to support fishermen and to support individual harvesters. They've taken a step onto this path of needing to support the commercial fish processing companies, and many of those are, as you know, owned by foreign companies that are shareholders, and they do not have any interest in driving money into the Canadian economy or the fishermen's pockets. Their interest is driving the money somewhere else.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Somebody said that somebody who's fishing for a processor is getting $3 a pound. What are you getting when you sell directly?
5:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Native Fishing Association
Fishermen selling their live prawns directly to the retail customers are selling at anywhere between $10 and $25 a pound.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
The inference that we have—in fact, it's more than an inference—is that the processors don't like the idea of fishers selling directly to the public because that takes away some of the product that they would otherwise be able to buy cheaply and sell at a dear price. Now you're nodding. Okay, everybody can nod. That's good. We'll just note for the record, if this is audio only, that people are nodding.
Are there fishers who are, if you like, in indentured service to the processors and cannot sell directly to the public?
5:55 p.m.
Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Skipper Otto Community Supported Fishery
Absolutely.
5:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Native Fishing Association
Absolutely. That's one of the problems with some of the leasing structures and issues with the licences in the Pacific region, in that fishers are essentially employees of the fish company that gives them the money to go fishing. They're then beholden, and they have to sell the fish to them for whatever price they are willing to pay. They have no recourse, and in many instances they don't get paid until months down the line.
5:55 p.m.
Commercial Fisherman, Prawn Industry Caucus
Another aspect is that many of the licences are held by fishing companies, so that gives them a very strong position to wield influence and also set the price that those fishermen will take. Often the business model is that the fisherman owns the boat and the processor owns the licence.
I just wanted to come back to a question you had that I didn't get a chance to respond to. You wondered whether a fisherman could receive retribution from DFO in the case that they raise their heads, which is a serious accusation.
Well, I can tell you personally that one of the leaders of fisheries organizations was boarded recently in a way that was very aggressive. It was not in a way that he'd ever been boarded in 40 years. They jumped aboard his boat without asking. They went down into his hold to see whether he had any prawn tails there, and it wasn't very friendly at all—so that type of thing can occur on the ground.
Thank you for listening to me.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Oh, lovely.
In past studies we've looked at the tie-in between the owner-operator of a boat and the ownership of a licence.
Mr. Askgaard, you seem to be in the privileged position of having a licence and a boat, and so you're the model, as it would appear, on the east coast.
On the west coast, looking to Ms. Strobel and Mr. Olson, do you think it's the absence of owner-operator provisions that has allowed the current situation to develop the way it has?
5:55 p.m.
Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Skipper Otto Community Supported Fishery
Yes, absolutely.
5:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Native Fishing Association
Yes. I think that plays a significant part in the challenges.
Fishing companies are the ones calling people to lease licences. It's often not fishermen. The goal is to control as much access to product as possible. Their interest is not in supporting fishermen.
5:55 p.m.
Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Skipper Otto Community Supported Fishery
To answer that, at Skipper Otto we're often looking for more fishermen as we're growing, but they're often very cautious to talk with us or to work with us because if they are perceived to be selling some of their catch to us....
We don't own the licences. It's a very tough situation. They may not get ice. One of the ice-processing plants will refuse to ice their boat if they find out that they are trying to sell independently.
5:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
We've heard that when the processors ship product, some of it is in tubs, frozen. Is that true?
6 p.m.
Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Skipper Otto Community Supported Fishery
Yes.
6 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Is there any inspection of those tubs by DFO that you're aware of?
6 p.m.
Executive Director, Native Fishing Association
No, because they become a CFIA problem after that.
6 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
We'll have to check with the CFIA to see what kinds of inspections they do.
Let's say that the tubs, as they're currently constituted....
Ms. Strobel, I appreciate your holding that tub up. It seemed to be fairly thick. There could be a couple of layers of prawns in there that might make it difficult to see very clearly what size they are. I can see the bottom layer, but the top one is obscured by the label.
Is it possible to redesign the tubs in such a way that just by picking it up, they can see exactly what's in it? That would blow this whole readily acceptable argument out of the water, so to speak.
6 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Richard Bragdon
Thank you, Mr. Hardie.
Give just a five-second answer, Ms. Strobel.
6 p.m.
Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Skipper Otto Community Supported Fishery
What I have here is a one-pound tub. There are also smaller, half-pound tubs that are thinner. You can see almost every prawn in them, and it does take about two minutes to thaw one of these.
6 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Richard Bragdon
Thank you, Ms. Strobel. Thank you, Mr. Hardie.
We'll now move to Madam Gill for six minutes or less.
6 p.m.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I thank the witnesses, Ms. Strobel, Mr. Askgaard and Mr. Olson.
I must say that, although I am not surprised, I am still concerned by everything that has been said so far. You heard the representatives of the Fisheries and Oceans Department tell us, in summary, that fishers' representatives and not industry representatives asked that meetings be held, which is very different. That is what we were told and what I have understood, but I will look into this a bit further.
They also told us that no changes have been made. It's as if we were being told that, as elected members, we are carrying out a study that is absolutely useless and that nothing has ever happened.
My primary concern is for you. If we cannot get accurate information from the department as elected members, I don't even want to think about how you feel. I sympathize fully with you in this case. We will see if lies have been told or not.
By the way, I commend Ms. Strobel's courage, as she talked about the petition.
Moreover, the entire issue of territory is also a concern for me. I will talk to you about Quebec, but the same thing is happening in Canada. Territory is often considered to consist of only soil, rocks and trees, but the sea is also part of it.
You also talked about food sovereignty and land occupancy.
You brought up many issues that are extremely important to my mind. You raised a tremendous number of issues and I feel that the time set aside for this study should be extended. We should actually continue to work on this study.
I also commend the courage of Mr. Olson and Mr. Askgaard, who said two words that can frighten people: collusion and corruption. Of course, that also worries me as an elected member. Finally, I am concerned by all the losses suffered by industry.
What is more, the vertical integration of fishing is a concern for me, as I have heard the same thing about the processing industry in this committee.
I will let you conclude, as I have talked a lot. Usually, I time myself, but I did not do it this time. So I will let you expand on the issue and on Ms. Strobel's recommendations on legality, among other things. I would like to hear your recommendations and thoughts on what the committee should do, as it represents Canadians, and not industry.