Fisheries Committee on May 26th, 2021

[Sonia Strobel]

I really appreciate the opportunity to be heard here. I have told many of our members that I have renewed faith in the democratic process of our country because of what's been going on here in this committee, so I want to thank you all for listening. I think it's the first time that I have felt so heard in my life and in our work here.

I do think that it's important that we are talking about the ownership of licences and quotas on this coast. It is very different from what happens on the east coast. Because of the structure of ownership, we see the dismantling of our coastal communities. We see the wealth being siphoned away from coastal communities, from harvesters and from adjacent shoreside businesses. I think the spot prawn issue has brought attention to that issue.

I agree that this committee.... I would appreciate its further looking into that issue with regard to Canada's blue economy strategy. We have to think very carefully about who benefits from our blue economy and whether they're in line with our values as Canadians with regard to who we wish to support with those dollars.

[Andy Olson]

I think I would echo Sonia's words about giving fishers an opportunity to have a fair playing field so that they have an opportunity to fish and make a living so that they're supported and feel like they are supported the same way that industry is—“industry” being the large fish-processing companies that have been making the lion's share of the profits from the seafood. It would be nice to be able to know that fishermen are going to get that same support through these types of processes.

I feel the same way as Sonia. Having participated in DFO processes for 10 years, I think this feels like it's something that hopefully will start to make some change that will be positive for fishers and for the communities that we work with and represent.

[Ivan Askgaard]

I'd like to address that question too.

When I started fishing, it was all owner-operators, and we saw the changes in management as quotas were instituted in the fisheries. It's really created a lot of problems with licence leasing and distortions of the market. I'm 65 and I have a fishing licence. It's time for me to turn it over to a young person, but it's too valuable for that person to afford, because it can be leased out.

I just would like to say that, yes, this is an issue that I'd like to see your committee pursue. It's a very important one.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Richard Bragdon]

Thank you, Madame Gill. There are about 20 seconds left, or are you good?

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I will take full advantage of my remaining time and ask the following questions.

Is the situation related to licences easy for Mr. Askgaard?

Is it easier for other people?

Could certain individuals be supported by industry to obtain licences?

[Ivan Askgaard]

No, it's almost impossible for a young person to buy a licence.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Can they be obtained through a fisher?

[Ivan Askgaard]

Yes, for a fisherman. They're leasing licences. In one case, I know a guy who owns eight boats, and he leases—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Richard Bragdon]

Thank you.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Richard Bragdon]

You go ahead. You have five seconds to finish up there, Mr. Askgaard.

Thank you.

[Ivan Askgaard]

There's at least one guy who owns eight boats, and he gets a number of licences that he leases from first nations individuals. He puts those licences on a number of boats, and then he gets other people to fish them, so this one fellow has eight licences and doesn't own any of them. They were bought for first nations by the federal government, and then he wields that in that way. He also owns a part of a processing company.

There are some real distortions from the way fisheries used to operate, and they could probably operate better.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Richard Bragdon]

Thank you, Mr. Askgaard.

Thank you, Madame Gill. I appreciate that.

Now we will go to Mr. Johns.

I just have a note here. If time will allow it in the next round, I will allow a one-minute question for each party represented here to get one more question in for everyone before we wrap up.

Mr. Johns, you have six minutes or less. Thank you.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses. I feel terrible about the injustice that you're enduring right now and the impact it's having on your families.

Ms. Strobel, you talked about the fact that there's not one plausible reason for the government to do what it's doing to you, for the DFO to be taking this action. We heard earlier, at the previous part of this committee, from the DFO officials that they had no science that could back up any conservation concerns. They didn't even have data on how many tubs.... They decided it was, potentially, a 10% to 20% increase in tubbing, and their backup was that they had two violations a year, on average, for the whole coast.

Can you put that into perspective, Ms. Strobel, with regard to the scale? How many prawns or how many trips would that be per vessel out there? Can you give us a glimpse of how these two violations a year affect the sector and of the impact they're having on conservation?

[Sonia Strobel]

Sure. Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We're talking about thousands of trips. We're talking about thousands and thousands of trips over the course of the season, so two violations are so infinitesimally small that it's not even statistically really relevant, compared to....

Mr. Morrissey used the phrase “the proverbial sledgehammer to kill a fly”. It makes no sense at all, especially compared to all of the actual conservation issues that are out there.

There are species we need to be protecting. We're talking about Fraser River sockeye salmon and things like that. Why on earth would we put this much attention and energy, with all the things we'd like to be spending our time doing, into talking about two violations for undersized prawns? Undersized prawns already have been illustrated not to be a conservation issue. It makes no sense at all.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The government is citing that they've worked with industry and they've come up with the interim solution that three tubs can be thawed. That's my understanding. If there's an undersized prawn, then they can go further into the vessel and start inspecting. My understanding is this proposal was brought to government by industry in February, and it was flatly rejected.

Can you share a bit of the insight on how that consultation process is going?

[Sonia Strobel]

Yes, that's correct.

The consultation process, again, was with the Pacific Prawn Fishermen's Association, and the issue was only brought to the attention of the rest of us in the industry on March 3, when they realized it wasn't going to go away. When we asked them why we didn't know about this sooner, they said that in February, when it first came up, they thought it was so ludicrous that it couldn't possibly actually materialize and that it was based on nothing. It just didn't make any sense. They had obtained a legal opinion to say that this didn't make any sense. They truly thought it would disappear.

At that time, all DFO's responses to PPFA—because they wouldn't speak to any of the rest of us and only spoke with PPFA—were that they were standing by their assertion that tubbing prawns and freezing them at sea was illegal, effective immediately, and they stood by that until this most recent statement by the minister, which only conceded that they would put into place some measures to allow it to happen this year, with no commitment for future years. Of course, this is cold comfort for fishing families who have, as you know, leased or bought licences for so much money. It's not possible to build a business around one year's confidence.

There was really no consultation, or certainly not with those of us on the ground.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

If the interim measures for this year, let's call it, were in place for the future, everybody would be fine. That is my understanding.

[Sonia Strobel]

That would be fine, and what I don't understand is why measuring the three tubs is okay for one year, but why that's not okay—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Totally.

On the PPFA, you talked about the legal brief that said it wasn't an issue. If the PPFA, the union, the Prawn Industry Caucus and all the prawn tubbers didn't raise it, who did raise it, if they said industry raised it? Was it the exporters?

[Sonia Strobel]

I found it very strange when I heard the witness say that this was at the request of fishermen or the industry. I've seen absolutely no evidence of that. In fact, all we've been told was that it was actually C and P officers who brought it up in a conversation around traceability and labels on prawn tubs. It was not brought up by industry or fishermen.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Askgaard, you talked about the DFO onboarding the vessel of a 40-year fisher.

Can you talk about the government saying that their efforts are to inform and educate, and how that's going? We hear about people being blacklisted and targeted. Do you think the fishers in the prawn sector are feeling that right now?

[Ivan Askgaard]

I can't testify for most fishermen, but when you do raise your head, as I am here now, yes, there may be some repercussions.

What was the other part of your question, Mr. Johns?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I think that's it. We're all seeing this.

My last question is to Mr. Olson.

First, I want to thank you for the work you've done with the Tseshaht and Nuchatlaht people. I bought prawns last night from Tseshaht.

You talked about the industry and making sure there's adequate consultation. Now the prawn advisory board only has the PPFA, and it doesn't have the Prawn Industry Caucus. That's my understanding. Can you talk about the impact of not having indigenous fishers and other fishers on the advisory board so that there's a full consultation process in place?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Richard Bragdon]

You have time for a quick answer, Mr. Olson.