Fisheries Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm sorry. I apologize for misunderstanding the question.

Absolutely there has been progress made in the last three years, since we had a new mandate in 2017 to negotiate.

There have been three agreements signed—two in New Brunswick, one in Quebec—with first nations communities to get them to a moderate livelihood fishery. There are ongoing discussions with other communities to make sure they have their right. We've been reviewing fishing plans that have been supplied to us from first nations communities. We're working with those communities to implement the right, but we want to make sure that the fishery is productive as well as sustainable for everybody.

Right now the fishing plans that we have.... We've asked communities to give them to us. We have a number of them. We are reviewing them, and we will be working with the communities to make sure that those fishing plans are implemented.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Jordan. However, I must say that this didn't really answer my question. I would have liked to know what efforts were made to discuss the definition of “moderate livelihood” with the 32 first nations affected by the Marshall decision. We won't be able to find out how many communities you could speak with. However, it doesn't matter, since I have another question that concerns this situation.

Could you explain why the department doesn't have any indicators to measure the progress of the various negotiations? I'm obviously talking about the first nations affected by the Marshall decision.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Of course, I can't speak to what is actually happening in negotiations at this point. What I can tell you is that I have met with the 13 chiefs from KMKNO in Nova Scotia to make sure that we start the path forward with them. I have met with a number of the first nations in New Brunswick to work with them to get their fishing plans so that we can review those plans to find the path forward.

Of course, we have signed agreements already with two bands in New Brunswick that will give them access to fisheries to make sure they have what they need to exercise their moderate livelihood.

We've also had very good discussions with bands from P.E.I.

We're going to continue to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Gill.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for six minutes or less, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Minister, for being here today and for your testimony so far. I look forward to seeing you on Tuesday night, when we can ask you other questions that are unrelated to this study.

Witnesses have stated that your current reconciliation agreements as offered from your government have missed the mark, because the mandate lacks any authority to make legal or regulatory changes to address the fundamental constitutional objective of addressing their section 35 rights.

Is the government willing to establish a mutually agreeable process to address these rights with first nations, one that includes Crown-indigenous relations in other departments as required?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

I will say that with regard to negotiations, I have been in very close contact with Minister Bennett. She has been part of this as we've been going through it, recognizing how important reconciliation is to our government. We want to make sure that as we go forward we do everything we possibly can to meet our reconciliation objectives, to ensure that we have these extremely important but sometimes extremely difficult conversations. I'm going to continue to do that.

We are working with the first nations to make sure that we can implement their moderate livelihood. That is the first priority and then any ongoing discussions from there we will continue to have as we move forward.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, we've heard from witnesses that a large part of the issue is that DFO actually doesn't have the mandate to negotiate on a nation-to-nation basis, that that responsibility falls to the government and to Minister Bennett and that she should be leading this discussion.

What actions have you taken to ensure that this is a true nation-to-nation discussion and not one based on existing regulations and colonial procedures?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

This is absolutely a nation-to-nation discussion, and CIRNAC officials are with us at the table. We're making sure that they are very much a part of this. We take a whole-of-government approach to reconciliation, so—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay, Minister, but how involved is Minister Bennett in the ongoing discussions?

There's a clear conflict of interest in your involvement, when you're attempting to negotiate how to implement rights while also being the main representative for the commercial fishery. It is really important that she be the lead.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Minister Bennett and I have been in very close collaboration on this file. She has been very engaged on it since day one. We have had multiple meetings together with first nations communities. CIRNAC officials sit at the negotiating table with us. We recognize how important it is to have them there. That's one of the reasons we'll continue to make sure that CIRNAC is part of this conversation.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Witnesses to these proceedings as well as from the five Nuu-chah-nulth nations in my riding that are in court with your government have stated that the government has failed to honour Supreme Court of Canada decisions that affirm first nations treaty and protected inherent rights to fish or to earn a moderate living. The DFO interim policy response of the aboriginal fisheries strategy, the FSC licensing system and other access programs don't address the treaty-protected inherent rights of first nations.

Is your government going to address the decades of outstanding business by demonstrating a willingness to prioritize this work with first nations and ensure that these court decisions are honoured and implemented effectively through nation-to-nation dialogue?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would say that this is absolutely our number one priority. I will say that we have been working with first nations to make sure that they are able to implement the treaty right that is Supreme Court affirmed. These are ongoing discussions that we are having now with first nations communities. No one is arguing that they have the right. We have to make sure that we implement it, and that is what we are working towards. We are not shirking our responsibilities, as you seem to indicate. This is something that has been top of mind for me, and I have been working diligently—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, you can—

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You asked me a question. Could I finish answering it, please?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

I will say that this is not something that's a simple solution. This is not an easy solution. If it were easy, it would have been solved years ago. I'm going to continue doing everything I can to make sure that first nations rights are implemented.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

You can stress urgency all day, though, and emphasize how big of a priority it is, but the reality is that it's been 21 years since the Marshall decision was made and much longer since the treaties were first signed. If we go back to the Nuu-chah-nulth, that's 2009. The lived experience of first nations is that it isn't a priority for this government, and there's not much optimism that things will be different in the near future.

What is different about your government, and how can the Mi'kmaq trust that you're actually going to commit to prioritizing this work and the Nuu-chah-nulth's?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Actually, Mr. Johns, since 2017, since we had a negotiating mandate put forward, we've signed agreements with first nations. We signed three negotiation mandates last year. We know there is more to be done. We're continuing to work with the first nations, but up until 2017, there was no negotiating mandate to do this work.

Since we've been elected, we've made this a priority. We will continue to do that. It's like you said; it's been 21 years. It's not easy, but it is definitely something that needs to be done, and I am absolutely committed to making sure it gets done.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

With regard to the mandate, does your department support a self-governing Mi'kmaq treaty fishery governed in accordance with Mi'kmaq law?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

These are all discussions we are having with the Mi'kmaq right now. Minister Bennett is extremely engaged in this file. We are going to continue to have those discussions. We know there are section 35 rights involved. These are all things we are talking about when we are meeting with first nations communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes or less, please.

No, it's Mr. d'Entremont. I'm sorry. I'm getting ahead of myself.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Morrissey, d'Entremont—they're close to the same.

Minister, it's good to see you. Congratulations on removing the Cormorant today. That was probably a big day in your lives, so congratulations on that.

I want to go back to the core of why we're here talking about it, because this is ground zero for what I would call the lobster crisis.

Minister, when were you made aware that there was an illegal commercial summer fishery going on in St. Marys Bay?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I will say there have been concerns around St. Marys Bay for a number of years now. We have had discussions; I have had discussions with commercial harvesters over the past number of years with regard to the situation in St. Marys Bay. Those discussions I had with them actually led to me meeting with first nations communities prior to this summer to try to work out an agreement with them. The escalation that happened was really something that made everyone recognize that this needs to be dealt with quickly.