Fisheries Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Minister.

Just to further clarify, so that we all understand the facts, we understand that the negotiations you're responsible for currently, to reach agreements with the first nations community on moderate livelihood, are between you as representatives of the Government of Canada and the first nations community. Those negotiations must stay home in that context, but at the same time, you do not give up your jurisdiction or responsibility for ensuring that the interests of the commercial fishery are taken into consideration when decisions are made. Am I correct on that?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's correct. I think it would be safe to say that I have to take fisheries management decisions into account with any decision, and that would include any negotiations we have. All of the fisheries management decisions that go through DFO come through me, whether they are with regard to seasons, catches or anything else. All of them come through DFO. That will continue. We need to make sure that we are protecting this very valuable resource and something that's extremely vital to growth in Atlantic Canada.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

So the voice of the commercial industry, commercial fisheries in Atlantic Canada, is resonating within your ministry and you personally.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I have met with commercial harvesters on a regular basis. My officials have met with them almost daily, it seems, in a lot of cases. I said I could provide a list of the ones that I have met with.

I know that there's more to do. We have been focused pretty much on Nova Scotia recently, but I'm more than happy to talk to representatives from other areas as well. I have met with P.E.I. and with Cape Breton, with people from the independent fisheries associations, which represent members in all the provinces in Atlantic Canada and Quebec. Those are conversations that I consider extremely valuable and I'll continue to have them.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Minister. It's extremely important that the commercial fishers, who are following this process as well, hear that coming from you, so I appreciate those comments.

Chair, am I out?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You're on the button there now. You're done.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll now go to Madam Gill for two and a half minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to revisit the issue of management with the minister.

Do you believe that several regulatory frameworks can coexist in the same territory and for the same species? Do you think that this situation is beneficial in terms of resource management?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

What I believe is that we need to find a path forward to implement a first nations right that respects conservation, that respects fishing effort, and that makes sure we address the concerns we're hearing from commercial harvesters. That is what I believe. That underpins everything I do: to make sure that we're moving forward to implement the first nations right to a moderate livelihood but at the same time making sure that the resource is sustainable for the future, making sure that every decision that we make deals with the conservation objectives that we've set for the industry. Right now, lobster is specifically what we're talking about. That is a very healthy stock. We want to make sure it stays that way.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

You spoke earlier about situations where people were willing to talk, for example, about what constitutes a moderate livelihood. People are willing to speak and meet with you. The same applies to the issue of management. When non-indigenous and indigenous commercial fishers all agree on the issue of regulations, you'll give your approval. However, I understand that it's difficult, given the current tensions—

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Nancy Vohl]

Mr. Chair, we lost the sound from Ms. Gill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Can you hear us, Madam Gill?

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Can you hear me now? I don't know what happened.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes. Go ahead.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I want to know whether you and your department have considered the possibility of co-management. Everyone would sit at the same table and could talk about their own plans and desires. The same would apply to the department, of course, when it comes to conservation and management.

Have you considered this possibility? You spoke about the future. According to the people we've met, getting everyone to sit at the same table to discuss management would be a solution for the future.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

With regard to ongoing negotiations, the negotiations with first nations have to be on a nation-to-nation basis. That is between the Government of Canada and the first nations communities.

With regard to making sure that commercial harvesters are heard, we are absolutely engaging with the commercial industry. We also have the special representative who is working with them to bridge gaps, to make sure that he can foster dialogue and make sure he is also hearing from the commercial sector about what has to happen from their perspective. These are all things that are extremely important and will lead into making sure that we have the right path forward, to making sure that we implement the right but still protect the fishery for the long term.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Gill.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes, please, to close it out.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I ask a question, just for the record, I find it disappointing and actually appalling that the Conservatives are spending time attacking me on this committee—

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

It's because you're irrelevant.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

—and trying to shame Chief Sack.

They haven't even picked up the phone. They haven't even called Chief Sack or the Sipekne'katik people during this whole crisis. Not one Conservative has called them, according to the nation. Instead, it takes an NDP MP, 5,000 kilometres away, to stand up for their safety, the courts of Canada and their inherent and treaty rights. When you talk about relevance, that is relevant.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

What about the local bands?

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, we've heard time and time again in this committee that in order to have a just process, indigenous people often have to break an unjust law. As a result, there's an over-criminalization of indigenous people in the eyes of the public and the government. In reality, it's the government that is refusing to hold up the law, to hold up section 35 of the Constitution, and is not responding when first nations are the victims of domestic terror attacks such as we saw.

Why is it that your government and the Conservative governments that came before are not able to follow the law when it comes to indigenous fishing rights?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Johns, I can't speak to the RCMP's investigations. I know there have been charges laid after what happened in St. Marys Bay. I know they are on the ground there now to try to keep tensions down. They will continue to do the work they need to do.

We need to make sure that people are safe. I think that has to be the number one priority for all of us as we go forward. As you and I have had this conversation before, first nations treaty rights are inherent rights that we need to make sure are implemented. I am working diligently to make sure that we find that path forward.

It has been a very difficult few months, there's no question, in terms of how we've seen things happening in St. Marys Bay with regard to vandalism, with regard to the frustrations we see from commercial fishers and from first nations fishers. We want to make sure we're doing everything we can to keep everyone safe and still move forward to make sure that we implement the treaty right.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, multiple witnesses at this committee have said they don't believe DFO is capable of negotiating in good faith with indigenous fishers on a nation-to-nation basis.

Why is there a perception that DFO can't negotiate? Is there a problem with your mandate or with the resources that DFO has, or are there legislative changes that need to be made?