Fisheries Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I have to say that you run a tight ship when it comes to the clock. Well done.

I have a special welcome and thank you, Minister Jordan, for being with us today, and to your officials, Deputy Minister Sargent, Madam Lapointe, Mr. Wentzell and Mr. Lamirande. We really appreciate all of you being here to provide your insights and your thoughtful comments on a file that is really complex.

Minister Jordan, I know that you've been working tirelessly over the past year, and we appreciate your openness and, really, all of your hard work on what we know has been really challenging at times. I am from the Moncton area, and I'm not in a fishing community per se, but I have to say that this file certainly has captured the attention of many Canadians and everyone is really watching this. We really want it to come to a resolution, so again, thank you for being with us today.

I have two specific questions for you. First, I'm wondering if you would be able to speak to us and elaborate on the federal special representative who was recently appointed, Monsieur Surette. Could you elaborate on his role and his responsibilities?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Absolutely. Thank you for that question.

Mr. Surette was a joint appointment by me and Minister Bennett from Crown-Indigenous Relations. One of the things we heard from commercial harvesters a great deal was that they wanted to be at the table. We of course are negotiating nation to nation with the first nations communities. We wanted to make sure, though, that they felt their voice was heard. The appointment of the special representative is there to actually foster dialogue between the first nations communities and the commercial harvesters to make sure that everyone's voice is heard, to make sure that we are absolutely engaged with the commercial harvesters.

Mr. Surette is a well-respected member of his community. He has experience in working with the fisheries in the past in terms of difficult situations in fisheries, particularly in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island. He brings a wealth of knowledge to this table. The other thing that he is going to be able to do is that he will be coming back to Minister Bennett and me with an interim report in December, as well as a final report in March, with possible ways forward to help us bridge these gaps.

Commercial harvesters and first nations have fished together for generations. The divisions that have happened over this issue are difficult, and we need to make sure that we are doing everything we can to bridge those gaps and make sure that we can have our communities meld back together again.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you so much.

I couldn't agree more. Mr. Surette is certainly an appropriate individual to be doing these functions, so thank you for that.

My last question for you is, how are we ensuring that the harvesters are a part of the bigger conversation here? We certainly want to make sure that they have their voices heard as well. Could you share with us how we are ensuring that they're at the table?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

As I've said, this is a nation-to-nation negotiation. All of the negotiations are happening between the Government of Canada and the first nations communities. However, the commercial harvesters have an extremely important role to play. We want to make sure that we are hearing from them. I have been meeting with them on a regular basis. My department officials have met with them all on a regular basis as well.

Having Mr. Surette there as well is going to be extremely beneficial, because having a third party that's independent, that they feel they can probably say things to that maybe they wouldn't be comfortable saying to a DFO official or to me, is I think very beneficial. They've been long-time stewards of the resource. We want to make sure we're hearing from them.

Our communities rely on our commercial industry, and we want to make sure, as I've said many times, that this is sustainable and for the long term and make sure that we have everything we need to have the right path forward for everybody.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Great.

I think I have one more minute. Perhaps, Mr. Chair, if I can, I'll ask one—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have 40 seconds.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Forty seconds?

Very quickly, I guess, what steps are we taking to make sure everyone is safe, to really ensure the safety and security of everyone involved in this?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That is actually a really important question. We have been doing everything we can to keep tensions down. We feel that having Mr. Surette there as someone who can speak to the commercial harvesters has kept down tensions on the water.

My officials engage regularly with the members of the communities, both of the first nations as well as the commercial industry. The RCMP are there on the ground not only if anything happens, but just to make sure that temperatures are lowered in the area. We've seen that it has happened over the last number of weeks, and we hope that continues.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Madam Gill for two and a half minutes, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll play devil's advocate. Non-indigenous and indigenous fishers have questions. Ms. Jordan, you said earlier that it isn't possible to operate without a regulatory framework. However, given what's happening in the fisheries out of season, how do you explain the fact that no regulations are being upheld?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

There are actually regulations in place. The conservation and protection officers are there to do a job. They are monitoring situations. They have removed traps in areas where they feel that overfishing has become a concern. I put out a statement last week with regard to the conservation in St. Peters Bay specifically, in Cape Breton, where there's an increased fishing effort that is a concern. The conservation and protection officers are there to do a job. I do not direct them, but they are absolutely working to make sure that the laws are upheld.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Are you using methods to quantify these catches or are you collecting data on the current situation so that we can get an overview of the area?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

The C and P officers, of course, have seized some traps. We would have, at the department level, some of the information on those.

I'm actually going to turn to Doug Wentzell, who is the regional director there. Maybe he could talk about the science and what we're seeing from those actions.

Doug, are you there?

[Doug Wentzell, Associate Regional Director General, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

I am indeed, Minister.

There are a couple of points that I could maybe share with the committee, Chair.

As the minister mentioned earlier, lobster stocks across the Maritimes region are in the healthy zone. We determine that through a range of science, ranging from catch data from industry in addition to fishery independent data that we collect.

In terms of fishing in St. Peters Bay, again, as the minister referenced earlier, we are aware that there are a number of traps that are present in the bay. We are working very closely with our first nations partners to collaboratively work towards managing any risk to conservation in that particular geography, and we'll continue to do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

Thank you, Madam Gill.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, we keep hearing from the Conservatives that the threat of a moderate fishery, a treaty-protected fishery, is having on the stocks, but the Sipekne'katik announced their treaty fisheries catch volume for LFA 34, and they cited that it's 0.005% of the overall commercial catch.

Can you confirm that what they're doing right now is not going to have an impact on the health of those stocks?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I will say that we are always going to be concerned about conservation first.

What is happening in St. Marys Bay is very different from what has happened in St. Peters Bay. St. Peters Bay is a much smaller area with a lot more traps than what we were seeing in St. Marys Bay. These are all things that C and P is working to make sure that it monitors. The fluctuations in landings in St. Marys Bay are consistent with those across all of the LFAs, so we do not see a conservation challenge right now. The stocks are healthy.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Minister, do you see that there's a systemic racism problem in the Department of Fisheries and Oceans?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I believe, Mr. Johns, as the Prime Minister himself has stated, that there's systemic racism throughout every department in Canada. We know there are challenges. We take them very seriously. We're working extremely hard to make sure we address any concerns that are raised.

I think one of the big things—and I'm just going to give a shout-out here to MP Battiste because he talks a lot about education and how important it is for us to all understand that we're all treaty people and that we all have a role to play in making sure we're addressing things like racism. I've been very impressed with DFO as well as the Canadian Independent Fish Harvesters' Federation, which is now offering courses on treaty rights and on working with first nations as part of their regular programming so that people can understand better what it means to have a treaty right.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We've had many groups testify here that aren't doing anything and fisheries organizations that don't have any plans to address systemic racism.

What's your department going to do to help engage those organizations around education? I couldn't agree more, Minister. Who in your cabinet is going to help lead this? Clearly there's an issue. Also, what are you doing in your department to tackle the systemic racism that is ingrained in the Department of Fisheries and Oceans?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

We have taken steps, as I've just said. We're working right now with one of the fishing associations, the Canadian Independent Fish Harvesters' Federation, to offer some training or courses to harvesters who are interested in what it means to have a treaty right. Those are extremely important conversations. This is a first step. As you well know, every journey starts with a first step.

This is something that can absolutely be expanded to other organizations that are interested. We will work to make sure that those things are available to other fishing organizations that want to take advantage of them. I hope that they would.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We now go to Mr. Bradgon for five minutes or less, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I want to go back again to your colleague MP Wayne Easter, who chaired the fisheries committee looking at the moderate livelihood fisheries. He recently stated publicly that the lobster fishery must remain in season. He really emphasized that as being important.

Do you share Mr. Easter's opinion that all fishing should be kept in season? If so, what direction have you given to the DFO officers on how to enforce seasons for all fishers?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

First of all Mr. Bradgon, I do not give direction to C and P officers. They have a job to do. They do that job. I do not direct C and P. That would be like the Minister of Public Safety directing the RCMP. It just doesn't happen. They are officials of the law and they will uphold the law.

With regard to the question around seasons, which is an important one, there are many paths to making sure we reach a lasting solution here. Those paths are being discussed at the negotiation table. This is not something that I'm going to comment on to prejudge how negotiations go.

I can't stress enough—I've said it before and I'll say it again—that I have heard very loud and clear from commercial harvesters what their concerns are. Those are things that I take very seriously as I'm going forward with any of the negotiations that we're doing.