Fisheries Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number eight of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 19, 2020, the committee is resuming its study of the implementation of Mi'kmaq treaty fishing rights to support a moderate livelihood.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of September 23, 2020. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So that you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee. To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in the committee room. Keep in mind the directives from the Board of Internal Economy regarding masking and health protocols.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute your mike. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. I remind everyone that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute. I can't say that often enough.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. We have the Honourable Bernadette Jordan, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard. With her, also from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, we have Timothy Sargent, deputy minister; Sylvie Lapointe, assistant deputy minister of fisheries and harbour management; Doug Wentzell, associate regional director general, Maritimes region; and Robert Lamirande, senior adviser.

We will now proceed with opening remarks.

Minister Jordan, please go ahead for seven minutes or less.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is great to be back here at the fisheries and oceans committee, so thank you to you and the committee members for inviting me. As you said, I am here today because I want to be part of this very important discussion we are having. I am accompanied today by, as you mentioned, my deputy minister, Timothy Sargent; Doug Wentzell, the associate regional director general for the maritime region; Robert Lamirande, senior adviser for indigenous relations; and Sylvie Lapointe, assistant deputy minister, fisheries and harbour management.

I understand that the study currently under way was put forward by MP Battiste and I appreciate the testimony that the committee has heard so far from first nations leadership, industry representatives and academics. All their voices are important to this discussion, and this is a conversation that Canadians need to hear.

Since being appointed to Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard portfolio in December 2019, I have continued to build on the progress of my predecessors, Minister Jonathan Wilkinson and Minister Dominic LeBlanc, and I've been working with first nations to further implement their treaty right to fish in pursuit of a moderate livelihood.

When Canadians elected a Liberal government in 2015, after 10 years of Harper Conservatives putting reconciliation on the back burner, our government took action and expanded the mandate for moderate livelihood negotiations. These changes led to two rights and reconciliation agreements being signed in 2019, which further implemented the treaty right to fish, as affirmed by the Marshall decision.

While discussions on advancing this treaty right have been taking place regularly, recent events in Nova Scotia highlight the complex issues around the implementation of the Mi'kmaq, Maliseet and the Peskotomuhkati Nation at Skutik historic treaty right. They are a stark reminder that we must continue to do more and to work together.

Our government remains focused and committed to the work we do with first nations to implement their constitutionally protected Supreme Court affirmed right, while ensuring that fisheries remain safe, productive and sustainable for all harvesters. But there are no quick or easy solutions. This takes time and patience, and there will be challenges along the way. However, that cannot deter us from moving forward

We are also continuing our efforts to de-escalate the tensions on the ground by engaging all parties in constructive dialogue. On that front, I have met and will continue to meet regularly with both indigenous leadership and commercial harvesters.

During these discussions we have heard the frustrations from both parties. First nations are frustrated that negotiations have taken too long and that there is a lack of real progress to implement their right. Non-indigenous harvesters are concerned about the future of the fishery and what it means for their livelihoods.

That is why, along with Minister Bennett, our government recently appointed a federal special representative, Allister Surette. He is a neutral third party who is working to foster dialogue and rebuild trust between indigenous and commercial harvesters.

This is a structured forum for Mr. Surette to gather different perspectives and address real questions and concerns, with the goal of building a greater understanding. He will provide recommendations to the government on ways to move forward.

Commercial fishers and first nations have fished side by side for generations, and communities need to come together again. We need to ensure that treaty rights are implemented and the fisheries remain productive for all harvesters.

As the representative undertakes his work, nation-to-nation discussions with first nations on a path forward will continue.

While I cannot speak to the details of these discussions, I believe there has been progress, and I am having productive conversations with many first nations regarding proposed fishing plans in the short and the longer term.

I also want to touch on the issue of conservation as I understand it has been raised a few times at this committee.

I would like to say very clearly that conservation underpins everything we do. Lobster stocks are healthy and we will never move forward with a plan that threatens the health of this species or any other species.

I know that this approach is shared with many of the first nations leaders I speak with regularly. It is also shared very strongly by harvesters in the commercial industry who, over generations, have worked in partnership with DFO to develop conservation practices and regulations that have helped build the stock to the healthy levels we have today. We will not jeopardize that progress.

I will continue to make every effort with industry to increase transparency, formalize the lines of communication and ensure that industry has meaningful opportunities to share their concerns and express their views.

My department, this government and I remain committed to working with first nations leaders to implement their treaty rights.

I will now be pleased to take any of your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll get right into the questions now. I will remind members that I will try to be as strict as I can on the time so everybody gets their equal time to ask the minister questions.

Mr. Bragdon, I believe you're leading off for the Conservative Party for six minutes or less, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here with us this evening.

Minister, Premier Stephen McNeil has been very critical of how you've handled this crisis so far. He has said that he is “very dissatisfied, quite frankly”. He said:

We need the federal minister to sit down with all sides in a room. It is not enough to sit down with Indigenous leaders or with fishing associations by themselves.

Do you agree with Premier McNeil's position, that you have not done enough to this point?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Actually, Mr. Bragdon, I have been extremely engaged on this file since I was first appointed minister.

With regard to Premier McNeil's comments, we believe this is a nation-to-nation negotiation. We will continue to work with first nations to make sure we implement their treaty right. However, I do recognize that commercial harvesters have concerns and that is why I have continued to meet with them as well.

One of the reasons we appointed the special representative was that we have heard that commercial harvesters feel they wanted to have a stronger way to communicate with DFO. This third party person will be able to help us move forward.

With regard to the premier's comments, no, I believe we are doing everything we possibly can to make sure that we implement this treaty right.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Minister.

Here's a quote from Mr. Alan Clarke. He's a retired DFO officer. He said:

I don't blame the Indigenous fishermen or the non-Indigenous fishermen, I blame minister Jordan and whoever she is getting advice from.

My view is that they have mishandled this situation terribly when they should have been following their own recommendations.

Do you not understand that the tension that exists right now between the indigenous and non-indigenous fishers is a direct result of your government's mishandling of the situation?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Bragdon, that's a false claim. The Supreme Court affirmed the right of indigenous people to fish 21 years ago. There has been incremental progress but there have been frustrations on both sides, because we have not come to a place where we were able to implement. That is successive governments, not this one. More progress has been made since 2017, since we've taken office, to make sure we implement this right, than has been for many years. We will continue to work with the first nations to make sure we do that.

With regard to the tensions, there is no excuse. There's no excuse for the tensions, the vandalism and the violence we've seen. We're going to continue to work to make sure we lower those tensions.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Minister.

Chief Darlene Bernard was a witness in this study and she said to our committee:

One thing I'm getting very frustrated with is that we've sent letters. We sent a letter to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans months ago, in August, saying, “We want you to get back here and talk to us, because there is a lot of unrest going on.” We never even got a response to it.

We're not getting responses when we're actually asking them to come to talk to us. That has to be changed.

Why didn't you meet with indigenous communities when they were first calling on you to resolve this issue before it escalated into violence?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

With regard to Chief Bernard, I heard that testimony from committee. I have been following up to find out about that letter, because I have not seen it.

I have been meeting with the first nations leadership since the start of this. I've met with all the chiefs from KMK. I've met with the chiefs through Sipekne'katik. I've met with chiefs from New Brunswick, as well as from Prince Edward Island.

With regard to Chief Bernard directly, I have been asking my department to follow up to find out where that letter is, because I have not seen that request.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Minister, a few weeks ago we also heard from a witness who stated:

The current violence is a symptom of a flawed negotiation process followed by the government and the constant exclusion of commercial fishers from fisheries management discussions.

I believe this came from Mr. Cloutier. He said, “The government approach divides coastal communities that depend on fishing for a living.”

Clearly, there's a concern here that you're excluding commercial fishers, yet you said previously that you've met with them. Could you tell the committee which commercial fisheries associations you have met with?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Absolutely. I have met with the Brazil Rock 33/34 Lobster Association, the Coldwater Lobster Association, the Maritime Fishermen's Union, the Canadian Independent Fish Harvesters’ Federation, the Bay of Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association, the Richmond County Inshore Fishermen's Association, and the Lobster Fishing Area 33 port authorities. I'm not sure if I have all of them in front of me, but I can get you a full list.

I have met with all of those associations on more than one occasion, Mr. Bragdon. I have met with the leadership from those organizations.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Minister, but we've heard from first nations chiefs, non-first nations fishers, the Premier of Nova Scotia, retired DFO officers, and even professors, who have highlighted that the root cause of all the strife in this situation in Nova Scotia right now is your handling of this crisis.

Outside of your immediate circle, is there anyone who will come out and say that this is being handled well and that we are where we need to be at this point in this crisis? This has escalated over a series of months. Can you point to any independent sources that are saying this is well in hand and it's going well?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Actually, there have been a number of times when I've spoken with chiefs who have actually gone public and said that they've been pleased with conversations. The commercial harvesters I have met with cannot deny that I have met with them. We've had a lot of conversations over the last number of months. I have met with the leadership of KMKNO on a number of occasions, even before all of this escalated. Back as early as January, I was meeting with their leadership. I think it's important that we continue to have those conversations.

Aside from me, my department officials have also been reaching out to those interested parties, to first nations and to stakeholders, to make sure their voices are heard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bragdon.

We'll now move to Mr. Battiste for six minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Committee members, what we're talking about here has not been weeks in the making or months in the making. This is 400 years of a relationship between two nations. For most of the first 200 years it was about creating treaties to resolve crises and to live in harmony with one another. For the past 200 years, unfortunately, it has been about treaty denial.

Minister, I want to start off by thanking you not only for coming before us but also for all of your work. I know we've had many conversations and you have had many conversations with Mi'kmaq stakeholders and non-Mi'kmaq stakeholders.

At the heart of this matter is 200 years of injustice. What we're trying to figure out is a way to navigate for the next 200 years, God willing. I realize this is a heavy burden to place on any minister, any person. I also realize that DFO and the RCMP have a difficult burden and responsibility to act in accordance with evolving legal principles such as the honour of the Crown and reconciliation when dealing with indigenous nations.

With that in mind, Minister, this study is all about trying to make recommendations to move forward on that path together towards reconciliation. I'm wondering if there's anything you can talk to us about, some of the complexities that you've found since taking on your role as minister.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Well, thank you, Mr. Battiste. I would also like to thank you for your advocacy on this and for helping to educate people on this issue. It is a very big issue.

As I've said many times, if there were a simple solution to this long-standing issue, it would have been solved 21 years ago, but there is not. It's very complex. One challenge we face is the whole idea of defining what a moderate livelihood is. I feel that is one of the biggest things we're dealing with. It's different for everybody. What a moderate livelihood is in one community is very different from what a moderate livelihood is in another community. What we need to do, as the Crown or as the government, is to make sure we're listening to those communities.

As you've said, we need to find a path forward for the next 200 years. That path forward has to include first nations communities. I think that for too long we have, over years, built systems that did not include them, and we need to make sure that we do. As we go forward it's going to be extremely important for us to listen to all of the communities involved. Every one of them has a different thought on what a moderate livelihood looks like.

I've been told many times or asked many times, “Why don't you just define the right and then it's done?” I don't think the first nations communities want the Government of Canada to tell them what their moderate livelihood right is. This is something that has to come from the first nations. This is something that has to come through the negotiations. This is something that has to come from ongoing conversations. That is what I am absolutely committed to doing. I see that the only way for us to move forward is through those conversations.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

Minister, many have come before this committee with great fears about the future of the industry. Many argue out there and speculate, as they did 20 years ago, that accommodating a Mi'kmaq moderate livelihood fishery would ruin the fishing industry in the Atlantic.

Last week a major development happened when a Mi'kmaq coalition led by Chief Terry Paul in Membertou announced plans to buy Clearwater, the largest fishing company in Canada. The coalition borrowed millions and will be paying off this loan for the next 25 to 30 years.

Minister, do you feel the Mi'kmaq coalition investment of a quarter of a billion dollars into the fishing industry will ease some of the concerns about Mi'kmaq fishermen depleting the very resource that they have just invested so heavily in?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

First of all, I'd like to say that our government welcomes the collaboration between industry and first nations to grow the Canadian seafood industry. This project represents a positive step to building a strong partnership between indigenous communities and the commercial seafood sector.

It's a business venture, of course, that is voluntary. It's a commercial transaction between Premium Brands, Clearwater Seafoods and the coalition of Mi'kmaq nations. I'm going to continue to work with all partners to make sure that the seafood sector is sustainable for the long term.

As I've said many times, conservation has to underpin every decision that we make. I believe that first nations, as well as commercial harvesters, believe that as well. That is going to have to be the underlying theme of everything we do: making sure that we conserve the species for the long term.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Minister, in your conversation with the Mi'kmaq leadership, have there been solutions proposed that would allow both for them to practise a right but at the same time be transparent, thereby easing the concern of many of the fishermen who depend on the fisheries for their current livelihood?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I can't speak to negotiations specifically about what is being discussed at the negotiation table.

I will say, of course, Mr. Battiste, the presentation that you put forward with Senator Francis and Senator Christmas is something which, of course, if the chiefs are interested in pursuing it, would be part of the negotiation process.

Right now, as I said, I can't speak to what's being said or done at the negotiation table.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Battiste.

We'll now go to Madam Gill for six minutes or less, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister Jordan, for being here today. I hope that you've had a good first year in office since last November.

I have several questions for you. As you know, many witnesses have appeared before us. We have a lot of ideas. People don't necessarily agree on everything, as you can certainly imagine. You said that the key issue that we're facing right now is how to define “moderate livelihood”. For some people, this concept can be defined, while for others it can't be defined. You said that you couldn't necessarily comment on this. The first nations themselves must say what they want.

I want to know whether your department has tried to hold discussions with the first nations affected by the Marshall decision in order to come up with this definition. Could you provide some figures? We know that 32 first nations were affected, but which ones are we talking about? Even though we can't know everything being said—I won't ask you for the definition put forward by each one—I want to know what efforts have been made. Are we on our way to a definition in the case of some first nations?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you very much, Madam Gill, for the questions.

First of all, I'd like to say that over the past 21 years, since Marshall, there has been a lot of work done to implement the Marshall decision, to work to make sure that first nations have access to the fishery. There have been a number of investments made to make sure that there has been access through licences, through boats, through training and through gear, so that first nations communities do have an ability to fish.

I will say that in 1999 the landing value for the first nations fishery was about $3 million. Last year that landing value was $120 million, so there has been progress made to making sure that first nations have access to the fishery.

With regard to the definition of a moderate livelihood, I think the big thing here to remember is that we've built systems as governments throughout history that did not include the Mi'kmaq or first nations in those systems. We need to make sure that what we're doing now is allowing the first nations to define the moderate livelihood for themselves. This can't be a top-down approach from government. This has to be something that comes directly from the Mi'kmaq. Although everyone seems to think it would be a much easier solution if the government just had a definition and then put everybody in place, I don't believe that's the best way forward.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Sorry, but I think that my question was misunderstood. I didn't ask that the government establish the definition of “moderate livelihood” for first nations. This is absolutely not the case. You referred to Mr. Wilkinson and Mr. LeBlanc earlier.

I wanted to know what steps you've taken over the past year and what efforts you've made with the 32 first nations to get them to define the term and then share the definition with you. I humbly believe that the government must also take action. I want to know what steps have been taken in this area.