Fisheries Committee on Nov. 18th, 2020

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Minister.

I'm glad to hear you're taking it very seriously, but it would seem by the input that we've been receiving that they feel like many times, whatever input they have had has not been heard, received, implemented or factored in.

In fact, with what has been circulating and what is out in the public right now, many questions are arising. Is your government currently actively pursuing the establishment of a separate fishing authority? Is your government open to having two separate and distinct fishing authorities?

I think that's a fair question that a lot of Canadians have right now. I want to come back to that. Are you open to establishing a separate fishing authority?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Bragdon, the Supreme Court made it very clear that first nations have a right to a moderate livelihood fishery. I am working in negotiations with first nations to make sure that we implement that right. The negotiation is between the first nations and this government.

I don't know how much more clear I can make that. These things are part of negotiations. I have heard very loud and clear from the commercial harvesters what their concerns are. I have talked to many community members and to stakeholders about—

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Minister.

No one is disputing that indigenous peoples have a right to fish. What is happening here is that many stakeholders have felt totally left out of the process and in the dark. Things have escalated to the point of tension where we are right now because of the absence of leadership and direct involvement by those who should be at the table as part of the process of reconciliation and coming to a solution that all parties can be part of.

I feel right now, Minister, there's an absence there. Now we're outsourcing to third parties and other interested people to do the job that should have been done right from the beginning by you, the minister, and the leadership of this country, namely the Prime Minister. They've not been involved. Why is that?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would disagree with you, Mr. Bragdon. They have been involved.

I have been meeting with the commercial harvesters since before I was the minister. I have heard from commercial harvesters about their concerns. I take everything I hear from them into consideration in everything I do. I can provide you with a list of who I have met with. I think I already have done so.

The important thing here is to make sure they are listened to. One thing they asked for was someone they could talk to, and that's why we have Mr. Surette in place. It is important—

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Minister.

I appreciate that, but did you consult with the first nations and the commercial fishers before making the decision of who you appointed to be the third party negotiator?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

This is an independent appointment. We wanted to make sure it was somebody—

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

So you didn't.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

We wanted to make sure it was somebody who could speak to both sides, and that is one thing we took into consideration.

Mr. Surette has a stellar reputation in dealing with this type of issue. He is well respected in his community; he is well respected in the fishing industry for working through fisheries issues in the past, and I have full confidence in his ability.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bragdon.

We'll now go to Mr. Battiste for five minutes or less, please.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

Since 1999, the Unama'ki Institute of Natural Resources, UINR, has been working together and collaboratively with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and various protection agencies on a wide swath of different species, such as eels, oysters, salmon. We had Shelley Denny, who is doing her Ph.D. in marine biology, testify at this committee that they've been working collaboratively with government on a number of species.

Are they not a promising example of how government can collaboratively work with indigenous nations on resource management? They've been doing it for more than 20 years. Is Unama'ki not a model that has been working in Cape Breton, and is this something we could expand to all of the fishery?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Absolutely. Shelley Denny is somebody who has been working quite closely, I believe, on a number of different issues with regard to fisheries management. There are a number of Mi'kmaq science-led studies that we've seen. It's important that as we move forward with the first nations' ability to implement their right, we have the right science.

It would be great if we could build capacity within the communities themselves to provide that science to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, to have their own guardians program, for example. I think these are all ways that we can make sure, as I said, that we're building capacity within the communities to help manage this fishery.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

We've heard chiefs talk in this committee about the communities' really having no appetite for selling rights. In fact, one chief said at the last meeting that a Mi'kmaq chief who suggested selling that right wouldn't be chief for very long.

With that in mind, is there flexibility within our negotiations or elsewhere to look at a model that doesn't include modifying existing rights or, as they would call it, selling existing rights?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I don't think anybody wants first nations to sell their rights. I think that is absolutely not the approach we would want to take, as a government. As I've said many times, this is a right that has been affirmed by the Supreme Court, and we want to make sure it's implemented.

With regard to flexibility in negotiations, as I've said many times already tonight, I can't speak to what's actually happening at the negotiating table. However, having flexibility around mandates, around how we do this from community to community, is going to be extremely important as we go forward, in order to make sure that we are implementing those rights.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

I find it odd. I've heard the Conservative members opposite talk to you about have they read the Marshall decisions. As a former professor of Mi'kmaq studies, I'm wondering sometimes what Marshall case they're alluding to. Both Marshall I and Marshall II said that Donald Marshall Jr., someone who grew up 30 minutes away from me, someone I knew in my life and thanked for his efforts.... Not once but twice he went in front of the Supreme Court. He fished for eels, sold those eels out of season both times, and both times the Supreme Court ruled that his treaties were protected by section 35 of the Constitution and also by section 52 of the Constitution, which says that the Constitution of Canada is the supreme law of Canada and that any law that is inconsistent with that provision of the Constitution is to the extent of the inconsistency of no force and effect.

I'm wondering how much that weighs into Canada's judgment when we're dealing with Mi'kmaq rights that have been upheld twice in the Supreme Court of Canada and that are recognized by the Constitution, the supreme law of this Canada. How much weight do we give to that when we're actually considering putting any kind of regulations in place that would be of no force and effect legally?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I would say that is actually a very good, very valid point. The Prime Minister himself has said that there is no more important relationship for us as a government than with first nations people. We have seen over centuries building systems that do not include first nations, and that has to change. This is part of that change, and change is difficult. There are going to be challenges along the way as we move forward with this, but we as a government are committed to making sure that we do uphold those rights, that we don't have another situation where we have another Marshall case, and that we are upholding the laws of the land. That's one of the things that will guide us as we move forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Battiste.

We'll now go to Mr. d'Entremont for five minutes, please.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to start off by saying I was listening to Mr. Johns a couple of times. It seems that he's continually mixing up what district 34 is versus what St. Marys Bay is. I wish that he would reach out to people in my riding and understand the situation that they find themselves in. He continues to try to draw the issue of an illegal commercial summer fishery that has been going on in St. Marys Bay for close to 25 years, according to the previous minister of fisheries, who can look out his front window and watch what's going on there. This has been the challenge for the people of Clare for a number of years. They are very concerned about it. They are very concerned about what's happening in their bay, which they look at every day.

Mr. Johns, I do hope at some point that you do reach out to folks like that. I offered you my phone number on a number of occasions so that you could understand the situation here in southwest Nova Scotia.

I want to talk a little bit about Bear River and Acadia, because Bear River and Acadia have written two letters at this point. Bear River is sort of to the Annapolis side of things and Acadia is the band to the southwest corner of it. They talked about the territorial area of their bands and how St. Marys Bay fits in their traditional area.

Has the minister considered the letters from Chief Potter and Chief Robinson?

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. d'Entremont.

I actually have met with Chief Potter directly, and I recognize the challenges that she has brought forward. I will continue to have conversations with her as well as with Chief Deborah. I know that Chief Deborah is in the middle of an election right now, but it's extremely important to me to hear from all of the first nations that are impacted.

As I have said from the beginning, this is a very complex issue. That's one of the challenges, that you do have first nations within other areas that are impacted. We want to make sure that we're doing everything that we can to support them as well.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

All right. Let's go back to where I left off last time and talk about Chief Sack and what's happening on Facebook; not that we should listen to what happens on Facebook, but this is where it's coming from.

Yesterday and today he's been trying to recruit people to disrupt the opening of district 34. I can send copies around to folks, if they haven't seen it. I'm just wondering what the minister is doing within her branch, and maybe what she's doing with Public Safety, on making sure that everyone, I mean everyone, is safe in this particular instance.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Absolutely. That has to be the number one priority. You and I have had this conversation a number of times about safety.

I would like to ask Doug Wentzell if he would be willing to comment on this one. I know that he is well apprised of the situation.

[Doug Wentzell]

Thank you, Minister.

To pick up on Mr. d'Entremont's question, I think given the current environment, we continue to be concerned, as the minister has said on many occasions, for the safety of all harvesters. We take any and all threats to orderly fisheries very, very seriously. We work very closely with our RCMP colleagues and other enforcement partners on the ground to share intelligence and make sure that everybody informs the risk assessment appropriately. We're also working very closely, in terms of the mandate of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, with individual harbour authorities to ensure that they are assessing the safety and security of harvesters at local ports.

We are working, of course, with all commercial harvesters, both first nations and non-first nations, to help ensure that they can prosecute the fisheries appropriately. We're going to continue to do that. Again, it's going to be through open dialogue that we move this forward, not through violent or disruptive acts.

Thank you.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

I wrote a quick email, and my office wrote a quick email, to Deputy Minister Sargent when it came to the usage of the Saulnierville wharf. We know there's still an injunction there. Of course, indigenous folks are doing their fishery from there, but there are 15 or so boats and fishers who normally use Saulnierville wharf for their home port. Has there been some work on that one?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. d'Entremont. We've gone over time.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, I was pleased to hear you make several comments in response to earlier questions. Paraphrasing you a bit, you stated you'd never do anything to harm the overall fishery. You assured that harvesters are not left out. You heard their concerns. You don't want them to be left out in the process.

Some are trying to paint you, Minister, and your ministry as not hearing the concerns from the commercial industry, and that the government's only focused in one direction. Could you comment on your role as the minister and what steps you are taking to ensure that the interests of this very valuable commercial fishery are protected in maritime Canada in particular, in Atlantic Canada? I believe you may have alluded to it earlier, but I want you to have the opportunity to be clear and on the record so that there's no misunderstanding of your position that you have to adjudicate and protect both sides in this discussion.

[Bernadette Jordan, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Morrissey. That is absolutely the case. I have been meeting with commercial harvesters since I was first elected, but since becoming the minister, I've met with a number of the commercial harvesters, even before the rise of tensions we saw in St. Marys Bay. I will continue to meet with them, as they have an extremely important voice in all of this, to make sure their concerns are being heard.

One reason we appointed Mr. Surette as the federal special representative was that we wanted to make sure the commercial harvesters had a voice. They obviously cannot be at the negotiating table, because it's a nation-to-nation negotiation, but what they have to say is extremely important. It's important to me. It's important to the department. It's important to the government. We want to make sure we recognize their concerns.

As I said, I come from a small commercial fishing area. We're not going to do anything that's going to impact the stocks. We need to make sure the industry is sustainable for the long term. That is the number one priority I have and it will continue to be.