Fisheries Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[Todd Williams]

Sure.

Over the past two years we've engaged and consulted anyone who has had a stake in the fishery historically or wished to gain access to the fishery, for example, first nations, which represents dozens of various groups. Those are the same groups that we're continuing to engage and consult with.

The terms of reference of this advisory committee are not yet established, just as the fishery is not yet established. The environmental non-governmental organizations are listed as observers. In some committees they are members.

We'll discuss that as a group once things get solidified in terms of that advisory committee. Provincial representatives are also there.

Our goal is to be inclusive, but to, obviously, keep it directed as to those who are most impacted by this fishery and have a stake in this fishery.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

It's more of a comment.

If you look at reopening the redfish quota, it's a pretty big deal. We've heard today about the need for consultation. That's also a pretty big deal. We have groups like the shrimpers who are having a difficult time and will continue to have a difficult time if we don't look at innovative ways to help that particular fishery.

That's why it's really important to get this information out from this committee to you folks, and also to inform the people who will be consulted.

Let's highlight that again. It's important to this committee to not play he-said-she-said. We need to know exact facts. There's too much at stake here with respect to a new fishery, which is good news, but how do we help other fisheries? That's where your consultation comes in. I think it's important to clear that up because there will be consultation.

A lot of thought went into the minister's recent decision, but there's more information to come and there's more feedback to be had. That's very important as we highlight what's been done, what needs to be done going forward on redfish, and the support and help for fishers—in particular, the shrimpers who were here today to talk about it.

I yield my time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You're close enough for me to cut you off. Thank you for that, Mr. Kelloway.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I personally made this request because urgent action is needed at home, in Quebec.

Earlier, you were talking about a collective fishing system. They take all the licences and quotas, concentrate them on three boats, leave all the other boats at the dock and go offshore to try to make the fishing season profitable, or at least get through a more difficult fishing period. That's one solution.

The other solution is to keep waiting on what we've been waiting for since October. We had the shrimp measurement data, and we knew that shrimp stocks were declining significantly. We're now waiting again for next week.

In our area, some fishers tell us that they would at least like to know the value of their licences. They say that if they could buy the licences of people who are about to retire, for example, those people might be able to readjust their lives.

Do you think that's possible? Are you looking at those kinds of things?

[Adam Burns]

Currently, the department doesn't have a mandate for that kind of—

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Who has the mandate?

Even if there's no mandate, a crisis situation calls for creativity. We have to find solutions. Boats are being put up for sale, particularly in my colleague Mr. Cormier's riding. There will be some up for sale in Quebec too.

Let's be creative. That's why we're here.

Are you open to that at all? Have you thought about it?

I understand that this isn't part of the department's mandate, but we will have to find some mandates. Some people will be out of work and their boats will no longer be worth anything. They will no longer be able to sell their boats, they have no buyback value for their licences, and they can no longer fish.

I understand that fish are important, but people are important too. This has to be dealt with. These individuals have paid taxes all their lives, hoping to get some kind of service in return.

[Adam Burns]

Of course, we work with the other departments that offer support programs. We're working together to ensure that all these programs are available to people in the industry and shrimpers to help them during this transition.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Brown for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Williams, can you explain in more detail your response to the first question I had?

I know you said that the process has not been undertaken yet to sit down and consult with indigenous communities. Can you please share more about what that process is going to look like, what indigenous communities can expect and how there is going to be an assurance that this is not, for lack of a better word, a tokenistic activity, but more of a deep, meaningful consultation with indigenous communities?

[Todd Williams]

Thank you very much for the question.

Indeed, that's exactly the approach we wish to take. We have engaged with first nations and indigenous communities over the past two years. Now that we have a set amount, we are in a much better position to consult fully with those first nation communities that have identified an interest in the fishery itself. In fact, there are several first nation communities that have participated in this fishery over the past number of years, either in an index fishery or the experimental fishery, and wish to continue in that.

We will be consulting them in a meaningful way, and again over the next couple of years towards phase two, to lock in those suballocations.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

This is my last question.

We were talking about the closure generations ago. We haven't talked about the learning, but we talked about that process and where we are today. I'm wondering, without having to get into too much of the science, what key things the minister is going to be looking at to ensure we are not making the same mistakes of the past.

Can you share the top-level things that are going to be considered in this process?

[Adam Burns]

Certainly, over the last 30 years, the department has implemented a variety of policy frameworks to help ensure the sustainable management of fisheries. There's the precautionary approach framework, among others. In 2019, the Fisheries Act was amended to create the fish stock provisions. It places new requirements on the minister in terms of her management decisions related to stocks in the critical zone, in particular.

As I mentioned earlier, we are also now embarking on advancing work related to ecosystem approaches to manage fisheries. It will allow us to better take into account species' interactions, environmental changes and other factors. This is cutting-edge work. It's not an approach that is broadly used anywhere in the world. We are working on advancing that, as well.

All of those lessons and all of that progress mean we're in a very different place, in terms of our knowledge and ability to sustainably manage fisheries, than we were 30 years ago. Because of that, we are able to establish a much more robust management regime for this fishery and for other fisheries that will hopefully open in the coming years. We'll be able to therefore manage them in a much more sustainable way and for the long term, if possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't think I'll need my full five minutes. I will share with Mr. Perkins or Mr. Small.

I will start by asking Mr. Burns this question.

The minister set a quota of only 25,000 metric tons while scientists recommend a maximum total allowable catch of 85,000 and up to 310,000 metric tons. That's less than 10% of potential TAC set by the minister.

Why is it such a low TAC?

[Adam Burns]

The minister's announcement was related to a minimum TAC. She has indicated she's open to a TAC higher than that, but wanted—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I thought you said earlier that the TAC had been set—that it was set in stone.

Was I mishearing what you stated today?

[Adam Burns]

The fleet shares have been established by the minister. That is the overall percentage going to the offshore, midshore, etc.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Would it be different from the TAC?

[Adam Burns]

The minister's TAC—the total allowable catch—would then be divided based on the fleet shares.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Even if she increased the TAC, the percentages would not change from what has been mentioned.

[Adam Burns]

The percentages would guide how the TAC is divided.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Guide, or—

[Adam Burns]

It would be how it is divided.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Would the TAC percentages not change?