Fisheries Committee on June 21st, 2022

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

I'll ask my question in English or French, so just make sure your translation button is on.

The first question is for Mr. Bonnell.

In your remarks you said that 90% of your harvest is covered by MSC sustainable certification. I have known about this certification since 2017, when we were impacted by the right whale measure in my area.

What will be the impact on your industry, on your business and on the market, if we lose some of those certifications?

[Carey Bonnell]

Thank you for the question. It's a topical question, certainly.

It will have huge implications. For us, as a company, we have our own global sales capacity in North America, Europe and Asia. It is a market access issue for us, particularly in North America and Europe. Asia is emerging, but in North America and Europe, we cannot sell seafood into high-end markets without either our fisheries being Marine Stewardship Council certified, or in a robust fishery improvement program, which is a path to certification.

These are well-recognized programs that put you on a path to certification. Unit 1 redfish is an example of one we're engaged in now. Grey sole and a number of others are coming out of moratorium, and will eventually roll into MSC certification. It is absolutely essential.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

On top of that, as you're probably aware, there is the Marine Mammal Protection Act. The U.S. is monitoring closely what we're doing with our fisheries. We're talking a lot about seals lately. We all understand we need to do something about the seal population. It has some effects on our other species. If we do it wrong with seals, if we just go there and harvest seals, can this also have an impact on our crab and lobster market, for example, in the U.S.? As you know, that is where we export almost everything.

What are your thoughts on that? What is your take on that?

[Carey Bonnell]

That's a relevant topic. We deal with this on a regular basis in terms of, again, market access issues. You have the Marine Mammal Protection Act considerations in the U.S. We have the new SIMP, an import monitoring program coming from the U.S., where we have to declare, basically, that our commercial fisheries are not having negative implications on marine mammals.

You've already touched on the issues in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, obviously, on the snow crab and lobster fisheries and the implications. It is something that, certainly in North America and Europe, for global sales and for sales of our seafood, we need to be aware of and we need to consider. We need to make sure whatever we do is done, certainly, thoughtfully. We're looking at a responsible and sustainable utilization of all of our marine resources, seals or otherwise.

Yes, it has to be done the right way. On the flip side of that, and you've already covered this, we have a huge predation issue with respect to seals. There are about 7.5 million harps in our waters. The seals task force indicated that 3.2 million metric tons of food is consumed by those seals. It's a real issue impacting the recovery of a lot of fish stocks. It requires dedicated attention on a number of fronts.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Just quickly, I'm pretty sure you're aware of the right whale measure. You see the map of the gulf almost shut down. Do you think those measures can be revised a bit, so that we can still retain MSC certification and, at the same time, ensure the Marine Mammal Protection Act is met in the U.S.?

[Carey Bonnell]

I would absolutely hope so. The MSC certification has been suspended with respect to the gulf and the issues regarding snow crab, at least.

As a company, we buy some crab from that region and that has created a lot of challenges in terms of selling that into the U.S. market. There's a fishery improvement project right now looking at ETP species. I'm loosely connected with it, not directly connected, but I think it's on the right track, looking at ropeless gear and looking at a whole host of things over a period of time to get us back into that certification.

You'll buy some time with a FIP, but you have to make sure your FIP leads to the actions necessary to get back into certification. It's a good point.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I wanted to go to Mr. Prevost, but you have me there. You're saying the MSC certification is very important. As you know, it's been suspended. I think it's still suspended. The price has never been so high.

To put it in perspective, you tell fishers it's very important, but at the same time, they're having wonderful prices. They're saying, “Maybe the MSC certification doesn't matter that much, at the end of the day.”

[Carey Bonnell]

I have two quick points on that.

One, I think the price may be high to harvesters, but the market price is not high right now. We're in a collapsing market, unfortunately, but that's a bigger conversation.

Two, MSC has a market access issue. You're not guaranteed premium prices for MSC. It's a bit of a misnomer. Some people like to argue that it is. In some cases, you might be able to find a premium, but in reality it's a market access issue. It gets you in the door, irrespective of the price.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Prevost, when I have a little time, I'll get back to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier. You've gone over your five minutes, actually.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to continue on what Mr. Cormier was saying about right whales and the restrictions put in place by the United States, because I found that really interesting. These restrictions are legitimate, in my opinion, because we really need to ensure that there is an ethical approach to fisheries.

Mr. Bonnell, I'm going to turn to you. Once again, during my trip to the Magdalen Islands, which was very fruitful, I was told about the possibility of monitoring the right whale in a more specific, focused way. There are satellites in space that can target the mammals' movements very precisely.

Shouldn't DFO be using more technology to allow fishermen to keep their fishing grounds a little longer and to increase predictability, again, on whale protection?

[Carey Bonnell]

Thank you for the question.

I'm going a bit outside my area of expertise. I'm not directly engaged here, but I do follow it closely.

I think the dynamic closure structure in place in the gulf has evolved quite a bit over the past couple of years and has created some level of flexibility for the industry.

I came out of the technology space, as I mentioned earlier. I think technology is advancing quickly these days, whether it's satellite technology or acoustic tracking and tagging technology. There are so many opportunities to advance technology, make this process more seamless and allow commercial fisheries to operate more seamlessly while, at the same time, protecting sensitive species like right whales and others that need protection. I think we're going to see a technology revolution over the next number of years in these areas, and it's the right thing to do.

Cost-effectiveness, obviously, is a consideration in all of this, whatever we do. Whether it's gear developed by fishermen or technology used by governments, finding ways to do this on a cost-effective basis is obviously going to be critical. Generally speaking, it is the cost of doing business and a road we have to go down. There's no going back on these measures. We have to deal with them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens. There are only eight seconds left. I don't think we'll have much time for a question or answer.

Ms. Barron, you have two and a half minutes.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Bonnell, again.

One thing we talked about in this study, with previous witnesses, is the importance of having access to publicly available DFO science and research.

Can you clarify your experience? Has Ocean Choice been able to access such information? Do you have any suggestions for ensuring this information is more transparent and accessible?

[Carey Bonnell]

Thank you for the question.

As Dr. Vascotto indicated earlier, many of us are engaged in stock assessment, science processes and management decision-making processes with DFO on key stocks—whether it's the CSAS process or fisheries advisories processes. I think we generally get access to the data and we're generally part of that process. We have indicated some concerns, in recent years, about restrictions and harvester representation but, generally speaking, access to data is not a big problem.

The bigger problems, from our standpoint, are gaps in data collection. As I outlined in my speaking points earlier this afternoon, the fact is that we have multispecies surveys being missed. I used examples in the Newfoundland and Labrador region, but I could cite examples in the Maritimes, on the west coast or with my friends in the eastern Arctic, with whom I spend a lot of time. There are a lot of gaps in stock assessment surveys right now that need urgent attention, because we need the best available information.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Vascotto, you had spoken about the importance of knowledge being passed down through generations of scientists. I'm wondering if you could speak to your perspective on the need for mentorship or institutional knowledge to be passed down and how that impacts your day-to-day.

[Dr. Kris Vascotto]

Really a great example of this lies with DFO survey information, which Mr. Bonnell was just discussing. Surveys are conducted annually and those surveys require...whether they sample during the day or the night and how this changes over time. If you have a staff member who's well trained and has 30 or 40 years of experience with this survey information and knows where the limitations are being replaced by somebody who doesn't have that same knowledge, you lose all of that institutional understanding about the context of how that survey information might be interpreted.

Without that overlap and that mentorship you fail to have those pieces of information, which weren't necessarily well documented, be transitioned to the next person, the next individual in that position, to be able to share the continuity.

The same is true about some of the stock assessment approaches and whether something was used one way in the past and another way now. These are all pieces that we need to avoid making the same mistakes as we've done in the past and also to make sure that we're continuously moving the bar forward as it comes to developing our scientific capacity.

I hope that addresses it. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for coming here today.

My first question is for Mr. Bonnell.

Mr. Bonnell, what are the industry implications of the missed Coast Guard vessel surveys over the past three years, and how could the minister create a pertinent management plan without those assessments?

[Carey Bonnell]

The implications, as I indicated partially at least in my opening comments, are significant. These multispecies surveys are the basis for decision-making on many key fish stocks.

I'll use our company as an example. I highlighted the 3LMNO missed surveys for the past two years and that potentially the spring survey this year was missed as well—so three consecutive years. I think of fish stocks like Greenland halibut, which are highly lucrative fisheries, where most of that management zone has been missed. Yellowtail flounder, which is a major fishery for us, has been missed the last two years and maybe the last three years. There's redfish. Snow crab would be another one that was missed in the multispecies survey. Luckily, we have a really good, high-quality trap survey in the case of snow crab.

These missed surveys have huge implications because you have no new information when you come into the CSAS process. When you get into the management decision-making process, you have no new information really to base decision-making on and you have no trends. That can present a huge opportunity cost for industry if we're looking at resources that are trending in an upward direction.

Conversely, obviously, there are concerns in terms of any negative impact it might have if you're not monitoring those stocks on a regular basis, so there are huge implications for us.

In terms of doing it better—or what the minister could do—there are two things as my recommendations outlined. One is to close the gap on the missed surveys, which I flagged, with the Canadian Coast Guard. Second is to look at ways for industry to be more actively engaged in these surveys.

We do this, and I used examples in my opening comments. I could use other examples where industry surveys can be used to help fill gaps that exist in DFO direct science. It's still driven by DFO. The survey methodology is still driven by DFO. The oversight is provided by DFO. It's analyzed by DFO, peer-reviewed by DFO and recommendations come out of the minister's office. Obviously, they come out of the department and into the minister for decision-making.

Those are the areas, I think, of improvement that really are urgently required to address some of these massive challenges that we're facing right now in stock assessment.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Bonnell, what are your views on how government could more readily engage industry in research vessel surveys?

[Carey Bonnell]

Again, I use the example of the Northern Shrimp Research Foundation. It's a really good example. We've been doing this survey now since 2004, I believe. All the offshore members in the shrimp fishery are engaged in this. It's off the coast of Labrador and south of Nunavut. The survey was conducted, and our vessel was used for that particular survey. It's been done for, I think, 18 years now on time and on budget, and it contributes valuable information annually into the assessment process by DFO. Again, all oversight is provided by DFO.

I could cite similar examples on Atlantic halibut. We were engaged directly with DFO on industry-driven surveys with the inshore sector and partnering with the midshore and offshore members. There are examples in the scallop industry. There are many redfish off the south coast of Newfoundland. We have an AGC survey conducted every other year.

There are many examples of our industry surveys. During the pandemic, we didn't miss a beat. In 2020 our surveys were largely still completed, and the information was still largely provided to DFO. It was done independently with oversight and standardized. There's an opportunity to do more of this, I think, on a go-forward basis. I'm certainly firmly of the view that this can be done, particularly to address the gaps with the Coast Guard right now.

At least have contingency plans. One of the strong recommendations—and this may be my last point on this—that we've made to government is to have contingency plans in place. Then, if a vessel goes down, have a couple of boats, several boats, industry standardized through the trawl standardization process, and be ready to go on relatively short notice. At least you'd have a backup plan, a contingency plan, if one of the aging vessels in the fleet goes down or if you have an issue with one of the newer vessels in the Coast Guard fleet. You'd have an industry platform available to provide that service so you don't miss this valuable information. That would be something I would strongly recommend as well.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Bonnell.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

My question is for Dr. Vascotto.

Numerous witnesses appearing before the committee have referenced the DFO modelling. It's something that I am not familiar with at all. A retired senior DFO manager referenced the Scandinavian stock model.

Dr. Vascotto, are you familiar with DFO modelling? Is it accurately capturing the data that's going in, in an effective manner, so as to get the right decision coming out?