Fisheries Committee on June 21st, 2022

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for Mr. Bonnell.

We've spoken a lot about the importance of stock assessments and the vessels required to conduct the stock assessments. One point you touched on was the investment in a green class designated vessel. I'm wondering if you could speak a bit more about how DFO has involved fishers in a transition to a greener fleet and expand on what that designation actually entails.

[Carey Bonnell]

Yes. Thank you for your question.

That's the newest vessel added to our fleet, the MV Calvert, which is our largest factory freezer trawler operating in offshore Newfoundland and Labrador. It has been an industry process that has really driven that exercise. With a new vessel build, you have the opportunity to do things the way you want to do them and to follow best practices. It's kind of difficult with existing vessels in the fleet—modifications are more challenging—but when you're starting from scratch, as we were, you want to put in all the modern technologies.

I think, based on our estimation—I'm trying to recall the numbers now—compared to another vessel of a comparable size, with a green class designation we save about 2.5-million kilowatt hours of energy per year and have about 500 tonnes of saved fuel per year. Think about the reduced greenhouse gas emissions and think about the reduced costs. Given the cost of fuel right now, that's a major consideration. It has everything from LED lighting throughout the vessel to automated technology on board the vessel and clean exhaust technology. It's state of the art in terms of everything that's available that we've installed on this vessel, and we're quite proud of it. We're quite pleased with it, and as we go through a continual fleet renewal over the coming years, we'll be looking to do the same thing.

This is one step in a multistep process that we look at as a company, ranging from vessels to obviously working with DFO on stock assessment science and trying to advance best practices there, to marine bioprocessing and waste utilization. We are an industry that I would say is generally continuously looking at ways to do things better, to do things more environmentally sustainably.

I would say that fish as a protein source is already among the lowest carbon sources of protein you'll find globally, but we continue to look at ways of doing it better and doing it more efficiently. Some of that is driven by industry. Some of that is driven, obviously, by government, and some by ENGOs, but moving in this manner along the spectrum of sustainability is a responsibility that I think we all bear and we're all pursuing. I think that's a fair point.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you. I love hearing about this. It's a great step in the right direction.

I don't think you answered this question: Are there any barriers that you're seeing for others in being able to go down this road you're taking to ensure that your vessels are greener and more sustainable?

[Carey Bonnell]

The key barriers on the vessel side, if that's the specific question, are that it's very difficult.... I lived in the space. I worked in academia before coming into industry, and I ran an organization called the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation for a number of years as well. It's very challenging to modify existing vessels in the fleet. Whether it's an inshore vessel, an offshore vessel or a middle-distance vessel, the costs involved in modifying vessels to be greener and more sustainable are very challenging.

There are things you can do, obviously, to get more efficient, but when you're starting from scratch, when you're going through fleet renewal and building a new vessel, you have the option to look at, in the inshore sector, a length-to-beam ratio that's more appropriate to ensure a streamlined vessel in the water to cut down on fuel costs. You can look at bulbous bow designs. You can look at reducing sulphur emissions. There are all kinds of things that you can look at doing with a new build that are kind of difficult with the existing fleet.

Where industry is moving to renewal...and I should say that there are programs out there. I mean, if there's one area.... You asked for what the Government of Canada is doing, and obviously there are programs like the clean-tech fund. That's available right now coast to coast to coast is my understanding. Industry can avail itself of that to look at ways to reduce greenhouse gas emissions on vessels, in plants and throughout the value chain and the supply chain. Expansion of programs like that would be quite valuable to continue to help industry down this road to look at possible cost-sharing for some of these improvements where the costs are prohibitive and to take on sector-specific initiatives to help advance this agenda. I think the maintenance and continuation of programs like the clean-tech fund, as an example, would be quite beneficial.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron. We're a bit over time.

We'll go to Mr. Arnold to see if we can get his five minutes in before we have to take part in a vote.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses today.

This study is one that I put forward to examine how the Department of Fisheries and Oceans prioritizes resources and develops science studies and advice for the department, how the results of the science study are communicated to the minister and Canadians, and how the minister applies data and advice provided by the department and other government departments in ministerial decisions.

Mr. Vascotto, I'll start with you.

On June 2 at our meeting here, Melanie Giffin of the P.E.I. Fishermen's Association told the committee that her association has not always been invited to participate in the DFO science and science advisory processes. In the past when the association made a request for a seat at the table, it has been denied even a seat as an observer during that process. In her view, there is a lack of interest by DFO in hearing what fish harvesters have to say.

Considering that harvesters see changes in the marine environment before DFO scientists, Mr. Vascotto, in your opinion, how should fish harvesters' knowledge be integrated into the CSAS process?

[Dr. Kris Vascotto]

Thank you very much for the question. This is one of those issues that is near and dear to all of our hearts.

Industry members are able to bring forward a unique position. I look around at the list of witnesses we have at this meeting today. They are actually able to bring observations that are outside of the standard, whether those be DFO research vessel surveys or some sort of external viewing through a satellite image of chlorophyll or things like that. They are observing things on the water.

Bringing these people into the CSAS process is incredibly valuable because they're able to discuss and present this information, which trained scientists can then take and actually formulate advice from. When data is being presented that might not necessarily match the interpretation from the fishery, context can be provided [Technical difficulty—Editor] fishery.

We recently had a CSAS process whereby they were discussing bycatching and bycatch patterns. Because we were able to include industry members that had experience in that fishery, they were able to point out that some of the data being presented was incorrectly pulled from a database. It was leading to very inappropriate examples of where bycatch was being encountered, what was being encountered and at what rates.

By allowing the industry—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I have a whole series of questions, so I have to try to move on, if I can.

How would you say that academics and environmental non-governmental organizations collaborate with fish harvesters in the science projects?

[Dr. Kris Vascotto]

We collaborate directly with them. We often work directly with DFO science if they require some additional information, whether it be length-weight relationships being derived from a plant or gonad samples being taken from our vessels.

With the environmental non-governmental organizations, we also try to collaborate where we have a common interest or goal in mind. Sometimes this can be challenging because some people come to the table with different perspectives.

I'll keep it short for you. Thank you.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

How difficult is it for you to evaluate whether a particular DFO management decision or policy has been evidence-informed?

[Dr. Kris Vascotto]

Thank you for the question.

We look at the decisions as they come out. We also have as evidence the CSAS reports that are being produced, which can tell us what our projected stock is going to do and what factors are involved. They actually provide that clear advice to the minister, which is translated through the groundfish advisory or those resource advisory committees.

When a decision comes down that is outside of those key areas or key recommendations, then we begin to ask questions about how this was developed and what the basis of it was. Sometimes we come up mystified; other times there is a real rationale. We just need to be able to understand it such that we can gain the greater industry buy-in.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

What industry inputs are most absent from the DFO science process?

[Dr. Kris Vascotto]

Often the inputs that are missing really are derived from some of the people you see on this call.

Because of this move away from a larger inclusion of the harvesting community into some of the CSAS processes, that voice can't be heard. Those questions are coming after the process is complete and after the decisions and recommendations have been made.

Being able to front-end load those questions into the process allows those answers to be developed and greater industry appreciation, involvement and understanding to be derived from it.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Quickly, with Mr. Bonnell—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Arnold, you have only about 12 seconds left.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I could have gotten it in five.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You won't get an answer in.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You could.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You won't.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Are you cutting me off...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'll give you your 15 seconds when we get back.

I think we have to pay attention to what's happening in the House. There's a vote called and the time is counting down.

We're going to take a very short recess to enable members to vote. We've all agreed to stay in the room and do it by phone or through the app. We'll get back to the business of the committee very shortly.

We'll take a quick recess to enable people to vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We're back.

Mr. Arnold, I have 30 seconds on my clock now.

You can start when you like. That's for the question and the answer.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Quickly, for Mr. Bonnell, you mentioned there are gaps in fisheries science. Can you give us some concrete examples of this, and describe the implications of these gaps?

If you don't have time for a full verbal response, we'd be happy to see a written response.

[Carey Bonnell]

I'm sure my time is short.

Certainly, stock assessment modelling capacity would be probably the biggest area we would flag, including a statistical analysis, ensuring you have the capacity to take stock assessments that are completed, when they are completed. That is one of the issues we have. A robust review and analysis is also necessary to ensure we're using the most up-to-date and latest models that are taking into account climate change considerations, so on and so forth.

We haven't seen those types of investments in Canada that we're seeing in some other western jurisdictions, certainly in places like Norway and Iceland, where there are significant investments in stock assessment science capacity.

As I indicated, the investments here are more on the ocean science side, which we support as well. I'm not knocking that at all, but we need a fundamental investment in core modelling capacity. It's not exciting, when you're talking about modellers, assessors and statisticians, but it is the foundation of sustainable fisheries management in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less, please.