Fisheries Committee on June 21st, 2022

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Staying with that narrative, in terms of collaboration.... You talked about it in your opening statement with respect to the five-year study on scallops and how that's working. I'll get to that in a minute.

In terms of that collaboration, can you unpack...? We use words a lot around here, like “collaboration” and “co-operation”. In terms of collaboration with fishers to make significant movement forward on creating a viable, strategic, outcomes-based, rural economic boom for Atlantic Canada, what does that look like?

What would fishers want to see in a collaboration?

[Leonard LeBlanc]

I think it starts by having industry input on the protocol. That would be the basis of how we start. You bring industry together in one room, you talk and you formulate from that an action plan to proceed.

What has happened on too many occasions is that DFO wrote a protocol, wrote the standard and then delivered it to industry and said, “Here it is.”

We need to take a step backward and involve industry from the very beginning, so that everybody understands where each side is coming from. You could maybe bring in somebody from marketing to help at the same time, but you need to involve industry from the very beginning, not after the protocol is written and DFO has decided what the action should be.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I'm going to give Mr. LeBlanc a break, and I'll go to Bait Masters, if I can.

Number one, thank you for doing this today. I know it's an exceptionally busy time for you, as you stated. I appreciated the presentation.

Can you tell us what the demand is like for your product now? The second part of my question would be, if you had a crystal ball—and I know you don't, but if you did—what's the future for alternative bait?

[Mark Prevost]

The hope is that there's a good future for it. The recent quota reductions, particularly for the mackerel and the herring.... All that did was hurt us more than it helped us, because now the quantity of mackerel and herring in the freezers in Atlantic Canada is higher than it's ever been. The amount of export coming into Canada from Morocco, Japan and Spain is higher than it's ever been. There's going to be more bait in our freezers, and everybody knows there's an issue with cold storage in Atlantic Canada now, because of the influx of bait.

I don't think the quota reductions are really helping right now. Over time, they probably will.

I believe that, with a lot of the stuff coming into Canada, there's probably some danger of contaminated fish or, for example, radioactive content in some of the mackerel from Japan.

Once all that washes out, I think what will happen is that we'll look for the next best thing. Fishermen, me included, need bait to fish with. We'll end up putting the strain on another species. You could see, most recently here in P.E.I., Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, gaspereau is now the fresh bait of choice. There's no more fresh herring or mackerel right now, so gaspereau is being overfished. It won't take long. It will be two years before we have an issue with that.

I didn't catch the second question.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I don't know if I have time. Do I?

I have no time. I'll catch you on the other side.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

It's gone way over.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll continue with Mr. Prevost.

I'm curious to know if you have Quebec roots. There are a lot of "LeBlancs" and "Prevosts" in Quebec. We'll talk about that in another context.

Mr. Prevost, you talked about an alternative bait. I recently travelled to the Magdalen Islands, where I met with sealers. We discussed the possible implementation of a seal population management plan. They were concerned that seals would be harvested for hunting purposes only, rather than with full respect for the animal.

I was informed that there was a research process to turn residue from seal into bait. Once the seal meat and skin are recovered, the residue could make interesting bait for your fishing activities.

Can you tell us what you think about this?

[Mark Prevost]

My Prince Edward Island French isn't that fast. I missed most of that. If anybody could redirect for me that would be helpful.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Did you not have the interpretation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

At the bottom of your screen you can select floor, English or French. If you select English, it will be translated into your ear as it's being spoken in French here in the room.

[Mark Prevost]

Rookie mistake.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Shall I start over?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I will ask Madame Desbiens to ask the question again as short as possible and allow you to give an answer.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I'm not going to talk about your surnames this time. We'll talk about that later.

I recently met with sealers in the Magdalen Islands. They plan to increase the seal harvest, if possible, but only if the hunt is respectful and socially acceptable. They want to make the most of the animal killed by using every part of it. When the meat has been consumed and the skin used, the residue could make interesting bait for your type of fishing.

Have you heard of this? Can you give me your opinion on this?

[Mark Prevost]

We've heard of it and we've been asked numerous times. We had a minister in here last week, the minister of rural development from Newfoundland. I believe it's worthwhile to investigate trying it in an alternative bait. Right now we're using 80% by-product in our bait sausages. We have proof of concept, and we're selling it so we can make money at it.

With the seal we don't know. We would have to grind up and test 10,000. Typically a field test is 10,000 sausages against 10,000 bait products the fishermen are already using. As far as lobster diet and crab diet goes, seal would work I would think. We're investigating.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

In any case, I am interested. As long as there is a risk of radioactivity with mackerel from Japan, I would prefer that the lobsters harvested here be caught with the residue from an animal that has been honoured beforehand by the concept.

I'll now turn to Mr. LeBlanc.

We're talking about better predictability that could benefit herring and mackerel fishermen, among others. They're asking DFO to provide more predictability in terms of financial or other compensation for decisions it has to make suddenly.

Should we suggest to DFO that it always provide for some sort of clearing bank when it has to make decisions quickly?

[Leonard LeBlanc]

I'll answer you in the same language.

Personally, I think it's necessary when decisions are made on short notice. When DFO decides to close a fishery after very little discussion with the industry, it should compensate the people who totally depend on that fishery.

I think that would be necessary.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I really like your pedigree—pardon the expression. I really like the experience you have acquired during your 36 years as president of your organization. You must have seen all kinds of things. You remind me a little bit of my father. I don't want to make you feel old, but I'm referring to all the experience you have in the field.

We can all see that there may be a provision that will lead us to strongly advise DFO to take into account the realities on the ground. In this sense, you spoke earlier of science as an ally, but you said you needed openness, and therefore better communications.

Do you think it is possible, in the short term, to ensure that communications are more effective between DFO science and the people on the ground, both in your region and elsewhere?

[Leonard LeBlanc]

Yes, discussions on science could take place right away. There's no need to wait. In the case of the herring and mackerel fisheries, DFO wants to have discussions in the fall. In my opinion, that's too far away. When a fishery ends, meetings should be held without delay. The time allowed for discussing certain subjects should be limited.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

What would be your ultimate request?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry, Madame Desbiens. Your time has gone over.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Okay. It's no big deal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I did allow an extra minute for the question that Mr. Prevost didn't hear, or get translated.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses who are here today. It's really valuable to us in this study that we hear this information, and we appreciate all of the statements and questions that are being answered today.

My first question I wanted to ask is for Mr. Prevost.

Again, thank you for being here. You spoke a bit today about there currently not being a process for review, validation and certification that a species or product is safe for use as bait in the crustacean fisheries. You also spoke about the importance of the chain of custody to remain with the bait right up until the time it's in the hands of the fisher, and also referenced the Maine Department of Marine Resources as a good example of that chain of command that occurs.

I'm wondering how you think the lack of understanding of the origin of the fish that's being used as bait impacts our ability to sustainably fish. Do you have any thoughts around that?

[Mark Prevost]

It's a good question. Thank you.

We manufacture an alternative bait, so there are ingredients in it.... It's all fish, but some of the ingredients that are being used now, I guess in alternative baits, regularly wouldn't pass the conditions required by the Department of Marine Resources. I think as fishermen start switching to alternatives there's a danger in.... We do the risk assessments and the studies so that we know we're not going to negatively impact the biomass or the lobster...or that we're going to give something to a lobster that somebody's going to eat.

I also think, with proper chain of custody, it avoids a lot of the undeclared catch or any of the cash stuff that goes on and whatever happens. There's a lot of product coming and going for cash, and it takes care of that, which helps people track. DFO, if they want accurate stats, they need to have an accurate recording of what's being sold and what's being used.

For some of the custom baits, the first thing we do before we introduce a species for bait is that we'll put it through a risk assessment so that we know it's safe for the biomass and it's also safe for human consumption if the lobster is eating it and then somebody is eating the lobster. That's what I think. Something like that's important for Canada.