Evidence of meeting #5 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sarah Murdoch  Senior Director, Pacific Salmon Strategy Initiative, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Brad Fanos  Director, Fish and Fish Habitat Protection Program, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Tina Miller

February 8th, 2022 / 11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting five of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on January 18, 2022, the committee is meeting for its study of flood control and mitigation systems in British Columbia.

The meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House Order of November 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so that you are aware, the webcast will show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either the floor, English or French. Please inform me immediately if interpretation is lost, and we'll ensure it is restored before resuming. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used if you wish to speak or alert the chair. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and for those on video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself before speaking. When you are not speaking, your microphone should be on mute.

This is a reminder that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses for today.

From the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, we have Sarah Murdoch, senior director, Pacific salmon strategy initiative, Pacific region; and Mr. Brad Fanos, director, fish and fish habitat protection program, Pacific region.

I also want to welcome Mr. Mark Strahl from Chilliwack—Hope, and Hon. Ed Fast from Abbotsford back to the committee. They've been past members on this committee.

Welcome back, gentlemen. I'm sure everything west coast is of the utmost importance to you guys as well. I look forward to your participation today.

We will now proceed with opening remarks for five minutes.

I don't know if Brad or Sarah is doing the opening remarks.

I would like to remind members as well that, when you're asking questions, I will be as strict as possible on the time. I'll tell you how much time you have, and hopefully you'll live within that. I don't like cutting people off, but I will if I have to.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Go ahead, Mr. Cormier.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Don't worry, anybody. This is not a motion I want to put on the table or anything like that. Don't ask for a recess.

I'll be quick, Mr. Chair.

Last week, Mrs. Desbiens wished me a happy birthday during a committee meeting. Today, I want to turn the tables. There's a rumour going around. According to my sources, it's her birthday today. Last week, she sung me Happy Birthday. I won't subject her to that, seeing as I'm a terrible singer, unlike her. I do want to wish her a happy birthday, though, and as a birthday gift, we could buy her a new headset to use at the next meeting.

Happy birthday, Mrs. Desbiens.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I'm sure that's from everybody to Ms. Desbiens. Happy birthday.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Serge, I'm glad you didn't sing Happy Birthday, because we would probably take off our earpieces if you started singing and probably leave the meeting.

Ms. Murdoch, you have five minutes or less, please.

11:10 a.m.

Sarah Murdoch Senior Director, Pacific Salmon Strategy Initiative, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you very much.

Bonjour and good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members.

My name is Sarah Murdoch, and I'm the senior director of the Pacific salmon strategy initiative. My colleague and I appreciate the opportunity to appear before this committee on behalf of Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

We all share a deep concern for Pacific salmon and appreciate the committee's study on the potential impacts of flood mitigation systems on this important species. This concern is rooted in the department's core mandate of fish conservation and protection.

I am accompanied today by Brad Fanos, the director of the fish and fish habitat protection program here in the Pacific region. After my opening remarks, we look forward to answering any questions you may have.

I would like to begin by providing a brief overview of the department’s efforts to assess and address the impacts of November’s extreme flooding on salmon and salmon habitat in British Columbia.

The flooding is likely to have impacted several riverine fish species and populations. This includes Pacific salmon eggs and juvenile salmon in rivers and streams across portions of Vancouver Island, the Squamish River watershed, the lower Fraser River watershed and the Thompson and Nicola rivers near Merritt, British Columbia. In some cases, eggs have been washed away or covered with sediment. In others, scour and erosion from high water flows have likely altered or removed salmon spawning and rearing habitats.

Currently, the department is working hard to assess and better understand the potential impacts to salmon and other species from the flood events. Following the spring freshet, which is when snow and ice melt into rivers and raise water levels and flows in early spring, the impacts will become more evident. That said, it may take several years to understand the full impact of the flooding to some specific salmon stocks given their two- to five-year life cycle.

Over the next few months, DFO will be continuing its stock assessment work while also prioritizing activities and actions to mitigate impacts and support restoration of fish and fish habitat. This will include working with the Province of British Columbia, indigenous groups, local governments, environmental NGOs, local stewardship partners and others to assess the impacts and determine what would be effective short-, medium- and long-term actions to promote recovery.

As well, DFO will continue to provide strategic support regarding salmon habitat restoration opportunities for impacted habitat related to both natural river processes and longer-term infrastructure rebuilding. The department has established an internal flood response task team that is responsible for coordinating input from subject matter experts across our program areas to support the broader inter-agency flood response and planning that's under way.

We are also re-evaluating current restoration techniques and priorities to help ensure that, going forward, salmon habitat restoration work in the future is able to withstand extreme weather and will support fish populations that may be vulnerable to climate impacts.

Going forward, DFO expects to be engaged in both local and regional flood infrastructure decisions in either a planning or project review capacity. For example, in our regulatory role, we review project proposals to assess the potential impacts to fish and fish habitat as well as provide advice to support mitigation and avoidance of impacts.

The recent flooding highlights the many challenges facing Pacific salmon and the need for DFO to take action. As committee members know, up to 50 populations of southern chinook and sockeye populations here in British Columbia are slated for COSEWIC consideration in the coming years. Many indigenous communities have been unable to meet their basic food, social and ceremonial fishery needs. Both commercial and recreational harvesters have been restricted in recent years to help protect the stocks of concern.

The $647-million Pacific salmon strategy initiative will guide and support our efforts, going forward, to conserve and rebuild salmon populations. That includes two key pillars—conservation and stewardship, and integration and collaboration that apply to the work here regarding the flood response.

Under the conservation and stewardship pillar, DFO will be focused on improving habitat monitoring and assessment, integrated planning for salmon ecosystems and strategic support for habitat restoration. On this last point, we are creating a salmon habitat restoration centre of expertise, which will complement existing programming and partnerships by providing technical experts to external groups undertaking salmon habitat restoration work.

As you know, the initiative also includes a commitment to double the federal contribution to the jointly governed and managed B.C.-DFO B.C. salmon restoration and innovation fund, which we call BCSRIF, to support the salmon stewardship and restoration work led by external partners across British Columbia, which complements the efforts of the department.

Under the integration and collaboration pillar of the PSSI, DFO will be continuing to strengthen our partnerships with the governments of British Columbia and Yukon as well as first nations. As you know, with regard to salmon habitat, there is shared jurisdiction, so it's imperative that we continue our efforts to work closely with each other. At a more local level, DFO will also be undertaking collaborative integrated planning to identify strategic actions to mitigate and adapt to the impacts of climate change and enable better outcomes for our salmon populations.

The impacts of the recent flooding on B.C. have been devastating for many communities. As we continue to better understand the impacts of the floods on salmon and other species, we'll be continuing to work with our partners in a strategic and coordinated way. Through the PSSI and other programs, we'll be working to bring together the expertise required both inside and outside of DFO to ensure that salmon habitat restoration work will be most effective, which includes taking into account future extreme weather impacts.

I'd like to thank the committee for conducting this study and providing us the opportunity to discuss the impacts with you today.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you for that, Ms. Murdoch.

Before we go to the questioning I just want to remind the members of the committee that for the purposes of interpretation, please speak slowly and clearly. It's a great benefit as well if you identify whom you're actually asking the question of, instead of just leaving it wide open for either witness to answer. If you know who you want it to go to, please include that in your question as well.

To start off, for six minutes or less, we'll go to Mr. Arnold.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your opening presentation. It is certainly important to everyone on the west coast how we're going to respond to these floods and how the salmon are going to respond to the actions taken.

I have one key question. You've identified the Pacific salmon strategy initiative and how that is going to be used in guiding and supporting the efforts. The PSSI was announced prior to the floods. What PSSI allocations or funds will be reassigned due to the floods?

11:15 a.m.

Senior Director, Pacific Salmon Strategy Initiative, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Sarah Murdoch

Mr. Chair, at this point we are not looking to necessarily reallocate resources from the Pacific salmon strategy initiative, PSSI. What I tried to highlight in my opening remarks is that there are some very obvious and clear areas of alignment.

One obvious place may be the applicability of flood response efforts under BCSRIF, which we will be jointly delivering the expansion of with the Province of B.C. Moreover, the centre of expertise for habitat restoration, which we are in the process of setting up, is very much aligned with the types of work that will be done or will be needed, particularly over the medium to long term, for salmon habitat restoration.

Similarly, there's work we are looking to do with the province and other partners on the ground on a more integrated ecosystem planning that takes climate adaptation into account. Under PSSI we will have more capacity to participate in processes like that.

Thanks.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Ms. Murdoch.

You mentioned the salmon habitat restoration centre of expertise just now. I take it that you've initiated that? When can we expect that to be up and running and available to organizations that want to make use of it?

11:15 a.m.

Senior Director, Pacific Salmon Strategy Initiative, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Sarah Murdoch

We are looking to have that stood up in this next fiscal year. We have a director in place now for our new stewardship directorate and the centre of expertise will be a key component of that.

I would say that we do have capacity now through our resource restoration unit. It's a smaller group, but we will be expanding that over the next fiscal year.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

You mentioned also that there are up to 50 southern chinook and sockeye populations slated for COSEWIC consideration over the coming few years. How many stock assessments were complete for these stocks affected by the flood prior to the flood, and how many are complete for this year?

11:20 a.m.

Senior Director, Pacific Salmon Strategy Initiative, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Sarah Murdoch

I'm going to see if my colleague, Mr. Fanos, has an answer. I am not familiar with our annual stock assessment program sufficiently enough to answer your question. We could certainly do so in writing.

We do have quite a robust regular stock assessment program, and under our species at risk program, we also obviously do additional work as populations go through that regulatory process. But I believe that many of those species or stocks would be picked up and covered off in our—

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.

If we could we get that information in writing to the committee, please, that would be great.

11:20 a.m.

Senior Director, Pacific Salmon Strategy Initiative, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Can you also tell me how many Thompson River and Nicola River chinook—pardon me, interior Fraser River steelhead—may have been in the rivers that have been affected at this time? How many spawning pairs may have been in the rivers affected, and how were they affected by the floods. That is the interior Fraser River steelhead, both the Thompson River and the Chilcotin River.

11:20 a.m.

Senior Director, Pacific Salmon Strategy Initiative, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Sarah Murdoch

We will have to get back to you with that in writing, if that's all right, Mr. Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Okay, thank you.

I also noted in your speaking points that some of the terms from the department were quite vague, such as that there would “likely” be effects and “likely” be effects on spawning channels. Is there any reason the department can't be more definitive in this?

11:20 a.m.

Senior Director, Pacific Salmon Strategy Initiative, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Sarah Murdoch

I'm going to ask my colleague Mr. Fanos, who will do a better job at responding to your question.

11:20 a.m.

Brad Fanos Director, Fish and Fish Habitat Protection Program, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Do you mind repeating the question? I think it was related to the restoration impacts of DFO types of facilities.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

No, the question was whether DFO has estimates on the number of adult interior Fraser steelhead that may have been impacted by the floods.

11:20 a.m.

Director, Fish and Fish Habitat Protection Program, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Brad Fanos

On that particular item, I think Sarah's accurate. We should be following up with the appropriate authorities. B.C. has management responsibilities for steelhead, in particular, so we'd be coordinating with B.C. to get that information.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

The other question was regarding the rather vague statements in here. One is that “The flooding is likely to have impacted several riverine fish species”. Is there a reason the department can't be more definitive?