Evidence of meeting #58 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pinnipeds.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
I think the witnesses have heard that now, loud and clear, and if there's anything they want to add for today's meeting in terms of offering information, we'll certainly allow them to send it in writing, please.
We'll suspend for a moment while we transfer out of one group into another.
Again, thank you, everyone.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the new witnesses.
Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.
For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French audio. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. All comments should be addressed through the chair.
Finally, I will remind you that the use of a House-approved headset is mandatory for all virtual participants in parliamentary proceedings.
I would now like to welcome our witnesses.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Mr. Chair, could I just get in a quick point of order? I am going to speak very quickly, because I don't want to take time from the already limited time that we have.
I wanted to see if you could provide some clarification around the manner in which the time is going to be split in the next round. Unfortunately, the way it was split up the last round, I and the member for the Bloc both lost time, and I wanted to clarify what our time allocations will be in this round.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
The time allocations will be that we'll start as soon as the witnesses make their opening statements. We have until six o'clock. When we get to six o'clock, we're done.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Can I make a request, Mr. Chair, that we distribute the timing according to the time we have, so that it's fairly distributed?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
You'd probably have to get that cleared through the individual party whips. They're the ones who came up with how the schedules advance through committee and whether it's the six-minute round and a five-minute round, or more five minutes and then two and a half minutes. That was not incorporated by the committee. That was done by the whips when they looked at the structure of the committees.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Thank you, Chair.
I'm not going to take up too much time, because I don't want to lose my time debating this, of course, but I know that other committees redistribute, so that time is still fairly allocated.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
You can ask for the unanimous consent of the committee to do that if you want.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC
Perhaps I can ask for the consensus of the committee to fairly distribute the time, so that all members have access to the time that should be allocated to ask questions.
5:10 p.m.
An hon. member
Yes.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
All right. We'll try to do that as we go through.
I'll see after the statements how much time is left, and if I can allocate five minutes to everybody to get to the end, instead of six minutes, that's what I'll do.
Thank you for that.
As I was getting to it before, I'd now like to welcome the witnesses. As an individual, we have Dr. Trites, professor at the University of British Columbia, by video conference. Representing Exploramer, we have Sandra Gauthier, executive director, by video conference. Representing the Pacific Balance Pinniped Society, here in person, we have Mr. Ken Pearce, president, and Matt Stabler, director.
Thank you for taking the time to appear today. You each have five minutes for opening statements.
I'll start off with Ms. Gauthier first, please, for five minutes or less. Turn on your mike. It's not on. The clerk will try to get that worked out.
I'll go to Dr. Trites first, please, and see how it goes. You have five minutes or less.
5:15 p.m.
Dr. Andrew Trites Professor, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My name is Andrew Trites. I am a professor at the Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries at the University of British Columbia and the director of the marine mammal research unit. I have been studying increasing and decreasing populations of marine mammals for over 40 years and have specialized in studying seals, sea lions and fur seals.
My research encompasses field studies, laboratory work and computer-based studies, many of which were done in collaboration with research scientists in universities and governments in Canada and the United States. I have also served, and continue to serve, on a number of advisory committees, including the marine mammals specialist group for COSEWIC, the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada. As such, I am acutely aware of the threats and conservation challenges facing pinnipeds in Canada, as well as the challenges pinnipeds pose to fisheries.
Regarding pinniped management and ecosystem impacts, I would like to bring three points of discussion to your attention.
The first concerns the commonly held belief that pinnipeds are out of control, that their numbers are exploding and that there is an overpopulation. Your committee was asked, for example, to “examine the ecosystem impacts of pinniped overpopulation”, rather than simply “examine the ecosystem impacts of pinnipeds”, full stop. To the best of my knowledge, all such statements on overpopulation appear to be based on a baseline of unnaturally low historic population sizes in the 1960s and 1970s, when it was unusual, at least in British Columbia, to ever see a pinniped, because they had been culled and hunted to unprecedented low numbers. In British Columbia, for example, all pinniped populations have recovered or are in the process of recovering from over-exploitation.
There is no overpopulation of pinnipeds. Harbour seals have been stable and at carrying capacity for over 25 years, with about 100,000 animals. The next stable population is for adult male California sea lions, which have numbered about 14,000 since the late 2010s and which originate from breeding colonies in California that stabilized 10 years earlier. Next in line in the stabilization process are the Steller sea lions, which are listed as “of special concern” in Canada and appear to be quickly approaching their carrying capacity of about 45,000 animals.
Adding these three numbers up yields a total of 159,000 pinnipeds, which is a far cry from the 2.5 million people who live in the greater Vancouver regional district. The bottom line is that there is no overpopulation of pinnipeds in B.C. Pinniped populations are balanced and being maintained at natural levels through natural ecosystem processes that do not cost a penny of taxpayers' money.
The second point I would like to briefly reflect on with you is the perception that predation by pinnipeds is bad and harmful to species and ecosystems. This biased view probably reflects the beliefs of many that seals are like humans in their desire to only eat perfect-looking foods, when, in reality, predators such as seals have much better chances of catching slow, diseased and inferior fish, which ultimately makes fish populations healthier.
Similarly, predation by seals also brings indirect benefits to ecosystems. For example, seals that consume predatory fish, such as large hake that eat young herring, can increase the abundance of juvenile herring available for salmon to eat. Finally, there is increasing evidence coming from terrestrial ecology that reintroducing top predators to their former habitats benefits ecosystem stability, productivity and biodiversity. This rewilding phenomenon appears to be naturally occurring in Canada’s marine ecosystems. Our oceans are being rewilded by seals, sea lions, whales and sharks. Thus, the benefits of pinnipeds to ecosystem health appear to outweigh their perceived harm.
The final discussion point I would like to make concerns the confidence different people have in stating the predictions made by mathematical predator-prey models, such as a model that predicts removing half of all pinnipeds in British Columbia will restore west coast salmon. What you may not know is that the chance of the model being right is only 30% to 40%, and it would likely take about 10 to 20 years to determine whether things would actually go according to plan. To some people, 30% to 40% odds are great, because of the amount of money that stands to be made if people can catch more salmon. However, those who put greater value on the life of a seal want more than 80% assurance of models being right before endorsing such predictions. It is therefore important to know, and to ask about, the level of confidence that underlies model predictions.
It is also important to recognize that societal views and values have changed significantly since the 1970s, when pinniped numbers were at their lowest in recorded history.
In conclusion, I don't know of a single case where culling of pinnipeds has had the intended effect.
I would therefore like to encourage you to consider first whether a population of pinnipeds that is stable and at carrying capacity can be deemed to be an overpopulation, and second, whether the benefits that pinnipeds bring to marine ecosystems far outweighs the harm that they are perceived to do. Third, consider whether the low probability that culling pinnipeds would increase the abundance of commercial and sport fish is worth the risk of failure and causing greater harm to ecosystem health and the well-being of other highly valued species such as killer whales and sharks.
Thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak with you today.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
5:20 p.m.
Sandra Gauthier Executive Director, Exploramer
Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you so much for having me.
I am here to talk to you about responsible seal meat marketing.
In 2009, the Exploramer Science Museum, an oceanographic science museum located in Gaspésie, Quebec, implemented a program for the sound management of the marine resources of the St. Lawrence, the Fourchette bleue program.
Since the implementation of this program in 2009, our goal has been to raise awareness of and promote little-known and under-exploited species in the St. Lawrence whose capture does not harm the habitat. To date, we have granted certification to more than 200 large restaurants in Quebec and to the Metro supermarket chain.
Given their biomass, grey and harp seals have been on the Fourchette bleue list of species we wish to put forward since 2009. Since 2009, there has been a steady and increasing growth in demand for seal meat for food purposes in Quebec.
Today, the one and only butcher in Quebec that processes seal meat is located in the Magdalen Islands and is unable to meet the demand. You can imagine that if supermarkets the size of the Metro chain want to put dried seal meat on their shelves, they need a large quantity of meat. However, the one and only seal meat processor in Quebec cannot meet the demand at this time. In addition, transporting this meat to the continent is another problem.
Since there are currently too many seals in our waters and we are seeking to manage the seal populations of the St. Lawrence in a sustainable and responsible manner, we want to pursue the worthwhile marketing and enhancing of this meat. We want to increase the number of commercial licenses in the more northern regions of Quebec, such as the Gaspé and the North Shore. These are areas where harp seals and some grey seals are still found today. We would like to see more commercial licenses issued and the seal hunting season extended so that we can have access to more meat. Right now, the ice is not allowing us to meet the quotas.
Also, we would like to see collaboration with the province of Quebec to open two additional seal meat processing plants. This would allow for easier access and a more interesting democratization of this meat. In Quebec, the demand is there. At the same time, for the past two years, New Brunswick has been coming to seek our expertise to add value to this meat, because it is very interesting.
Every year, the Exploramer science museum organizes training on personal use sealing. Each year we train 30 new hunters in this way. During the training, which lasts two days, we talk about biology and laws and give workshops on how to cut up the meat, butchering and charcuterie. The training ends with a culinary workshop given by a well-known chef from Quebec. For this workshop, we have a waiting list of 300 names. At this time, we can offer the training to 30 people per year. So we're seeing a lot of interest in sustainable sealing.
Currently, sealing is allowed in our waters from November to December, but the seals do not arrive until January and February. Therefore, we would like to see an extension of the personal use sealing season.
We must also allow other Quebeckers to participate in this hunt. Currently, only people who live in coastal areas are allowed to hunt seals. We want to allow all Quebeckers to have access to this hunt, after having taken a training course, of course. This is already the case for deer, moose and other land animals. Given the biomass that we have and what we can do with it from a very ethical standpoint, that's what we want.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you.
We'll go to the gentlemen in the room.
Mr. Stabler or Mr. Pearce, you have five minutes. One person has the time, or you can share it.
5:25 p.m.
Ken Pearce President, Pacific Balance Pinniped Society
Thank you very much for inviting us here. It's been a long wait to get before people on the east coast who understand our problems. I'm going to give a brief outline of what we've done here, and Matt will follow up.
I'm going to start off with the risk of not dealing with pinnipeds versus what Dr. Trites came on with.
One is the loss of salmon stocks. The collapse of our salmon stocks means the collapse of our coastal ecosystem. Whales, eagles, pinnipeds, sea birds, bears, diving ducks, otters and a host of others depend on salmon for their subsistence. No spawners means a dead river, as the spawned out salmon are vital in providing fertilizer to the system that feeds the aquatic plants, which provide the food that the young fry, trout and steelhead depend on.
Two is the collapse of our $1-billion-plus sports fishing industry.
Three is the collapse of what little remains of our commercial fisheries done by indigenous and non-indigenous fishers.
Four, which I think you're all sensitive to, is a very real threat to section 35.
What is Pacific Balance Pinniped Society? It's a group dedicated to bringing the pinniped populations on our B.C. coast back into historical balance through a controlled, well-managed harvest over time. Our group includes the following: 115 first nations, UFAWU-Unifor, B.C. Wildlife Federation and many of the other local sports fishing clubs. This group represents well over 700,000 supporters.
Also of note, thanks to Clifford Small, Rick Perkins and 152 MPs who voted in support of Bill C-251. I think it would be fair to say that this represents well over 15 million Canadians in support.
I will give bullet points on the science supporting a harvest and will back that up with written support, as requested.
Number one, 40% to 50% of outbound chinook smolts are consumed in the Salish Sea as they emerge from the rivers. Sixty per cent of coho and steelhead smolts suffer the same fate.
B.C. pinnipeds consume 350,000 metric tons of finfish annually. To put that into perspective, that equates to approximately 7,000 fully loaded seine boats.
Of the above consumption, 135,000 metric tons are Pacific herring. That equates to approximately 2,700 fully loaded seine boats. This year's allowable total harvest for the Strait of Georgia for the seines was 2,600 tonnes, equal to approximately 52 loaded seine boats.
At the north end of Vancouver Island, 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 returning adult Fraser River sockeye are consumed by sea lions alone as they school up for their journey down the Johnstone Strait. Economic loss at $10 per fish is $15 million.
Studies on the Columbia River show that sea lions consume three to five returning adult chinook per lion per day. At 10,000 lions, that equates to—
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
5:30 p.m.
President, Pacific Balance Pinniped Society
I'm sorry. I apologize.
That equates to approximately 30,000 chinook per day consumed by sea lions in the Columbia River.
The population of harbour seals in the Strait of Georgia is around 48,000. If they consume one mature salmon per week, that equates to 192,000 per month, times five months, which is 960,000, and that's just over five months.
The U.S.A. rescinded the Marine Mammal Protection Act on the Columbia and, to date, through a trapping system, they have culled over 9,000 sea lions in the last three years. We have the drawings for those traps, if anybody would be interested.
Our 52-page IFMP, our integrated fisheries management program, has been before DFO for five years now.
The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife commissioned Washington State Academy of Sciences to further study the pinniped problem in Washington state and offer solutions. Their top scientist, who is equated with Dr. Walters, said that the key thing was not just recommending more studies, but instead recognizing that such studies won't prove anything, and that only a large-scale harvesting experiment will provide the needed understanding. This is the first time that a major science group has had the courage to admit that the standard more-studies approach does not work.
Thank you. I will turn to Matt.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
I'm sorry. Your time has gone over, and by about 50 seconds. You'll have to provide any other testimony in written form. It's unfortunate, but we have to get to the rounds of questioning.
We'll start off our questioning with, of course, Mr. Arnold.
Do you want it divided out equally, into four with seven minutes, or into four with four minutes and four with three minutes?
5:30 p.m.
An hon. member
Two rounds.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Two rounds. Okay.
Mr. Arnold, you have four minutes or less, please. I'll be firm on the time.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank you all for being here.
Starting with the Pacific Balance Pinniped Society, have you determined whether there's a market for the product?