Evidence of meeting #84 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fisheries.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Annette Gibbons  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Adam Burns  Assistant Deputy Minister, Programs Sector, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Mario Pelletier  Commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 84 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.

Before we proceed, I simply want to remind members to be very careful when handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbour's microphone is turned on. Earpieces placed too close to a microphone are one of the most common causes of sound feedback, which is extremely harmful to interpreters and causes serious injuries.

We are joined today by the Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, the Honourable Diane Lebouthillier, who will be with us for the first hour. Officials will be with us for the full two hours today. Joining the minister in the first hour is Annette Gibbons, deputy minister of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and Mario Pelletier, commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard.

Once statements are done, we will proceed to rounds of questions and answers.

We will begin by hearing from the minister with her opening statement.

When you're ready, Minister, please proceed.

October 26th, 2023 / 11 a.m.

Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine Québec

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier LiberalMinister of Fisheries

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, colleagues.

I would first like to thank you for inviting me today to discuss my new portfolio and my priorities as Minister.

Fisheries has been an issue of high priority for me since I was first elected. In the Gaspé and the Îles-de-la-Madeleine, this is not the livelihood of thousands of workers, it is also a major economic engine for my region, a rural region surrounded by the Gulf of St. Lawrence, the St. Lawrence River and Chaleur Bay.

Before beginning, I want to take a moment to thank the men and women who get up early every morning and risk their lives on the water to feed their families, stimulate the Canadian economy and exercise their right to fish in accordance with their traditions, under the treaties. Fishing is much more than a simple economic exercise. Fishers contribute to our national cultural fabric in a profoundly meaningful way, and I salute them for that. I also want to thank Fisheries and Oceans personnel for all the work they do in this regard.

I would now like to discuss my priorities as Minister.

First, I want to ensure that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, the DFO, listens more attentively to our coastal communities and makes a greater effort to understand their situation when it comes time to make decisions relating to fisheries management, investment in crucial infrastructure like small craft ports, and other important issues that call for involvement by the Department.

Obviously, I am not telling you that we will always end up with decisions on which everyone agrees, but we will try to consult these communities more often, and those decisions will be made in a way that gives the sector concerned time to prepare and adapt, if necessary.

This all applies both to fishers and to processors, and to environmental groups, indigenous communities, sailors and scientists. Our coastal communities want to be part of the solution. They are our eyes and ears on the ground. I have made it clear to the people in my office and in DFO that they are to assign renewed importance to this priority.

It is important to talk about science. With the fact of climate change and the resulting heating of the oceans, we are going to be swimming in uncharted waters over the next few years. It is now more important than ever to collect the best scientific data in order to make the most informed decisions possible.

Mr. Chair, my third and fourth priorities relate to growing the blue economy and following through on critical steps on reconciliation between Canada and the indigenous peoples who have called Canada home from time immemorial.

I believe that fisheries are, first and foremost, a sector that generates economic development and creates jobs.

Canada has the longest coastline in the world. A unique opportunity is open to us, by taking measures such as:

transitioning away from open-net salmon pens; encouraging new methods of aquaculture while saving the Pacific salmon from further risk; and encouraging international partners to open their doors to Canadian seal products, so fish stocks are protected from predation and indigenous communities can lead the way on this potentially game-changing industry.

Canada must invest in innovative technology and infrastructure in both the fish harvesting and the processing industries, to guarantee that we continue to be a world leader and to be competitive for generations to come.

I also want to reiterate my sincere commitment to working closely with indigenous partners and First Nations communities in a spirit of reconciliation. This important work will sometimes take time and will undoubtedly involve numerous difficult and highly emotional conversations, but I can assure you that I will always be there to listen to indigenous voices and guide my department in the right direction through this difficult but important process.

As a final point, Mr. Chair, I want to say that I am pleased to be working with all of you on the studies and important work you are currently doing or will be carrying out in the future.

I particularly look forward to reading your report on the seal and pinniped study once it has been tabled in the House. This is a topic of interest to me. I'm looking forward to seeing the conclusions and recommendations of your report, so we can move forward on this economically undertapped resource.

Mr. Chair, I will turn the floor back over to you. I am now ready to answer my colleagues' questions.

Thank you.

Thank you.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you for that, Minister.

We'll go right to questions.

We have Mr. Small up for six minutes or less.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question for the minister is regarding a marine protected area that was created in a riding near Gaspé on the American Bank.

In 2018, the minister said that establishing this marine protected area would allow the re-establishment of seals in the region. Numerous witnesses before this committee have said that the Gulf of St. Lawrence is overpopulated with seals.

I'd like to ask the minister whether seals are overpopulated, or whether they're in need of re-establishment.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

The American Bank is also in my riding, which extends from the Gaspé to New Brunswick. Promoting seal products is one of my priorities. I see this as a new resource, one that is almost 98 per cent usable. This is a priority. We are going to work with the fishery sector, with fishers and the industry, to promote this new resource. In fact, we have recently invested $700,000 in research.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you.

With respect to Bill C-251, which would have developed a framework for the management of seals, does the minister think the fishing industry in Gaspé and Îles-de-la-Madeleine is against managing seal populations?

Did she vote with her constituents, or was there another reason for her voting against that legislation?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Could you repeat the question, please?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

With respect to the minister's vote on Bill C-251, does she think she voted the way the people of Îles-de-la-Madeleine would have wanted her to vote? The bill was to create a framework for the management of pinnipeds—seals.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

We have to establish standards in order for seal to be properly developed as a resource. We have to work in tandem with the communities. It is important to find solutions by collaborating with partners in the industry, both the fishers and the processing industry. We want to promote seal products. There is still work to be done to market those products in the future as well.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you for that response.

After eight years, a nearly 50% increase in employees in the minister's department—over 750 are here in Ottawa—and a nearly 50% increase in budget, does it seem reasonable that the northern cod management plan was not released until the end of June this year?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

On the subject of cod management, I can tell you that I experienced the repercussions of the cod moratorium on the cod fishery. I come from a village of fishers and people who worked in the processing plants. I am very well aware of the impact of the cod fishery. The fishery was reopened in the early¦1990s, and that was tragic. It is important to collect a lot of data.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Mr. Chair, I'd like the minister to answer.

Does she think that it was reasonable to delay the cod management plan to almost July 1 of last year?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

On the cod fishery, we received information yesterday and we have made major decisions, but I am going to continue to be cautious on this subject. However, we will be working with our partners so that we do not end up facing another moratorium. I knew what repercussions a moratorium has on the fisheries, and I am going to be cautious going forward, precisely to avoid harming our communities.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Yes. Given yesterday's news that cod has been out of the critical zone since 2016, with that tremendous economic opportunity missed in the fishing industry—which they really would love to have been able to take advantage of, especially last year when the crab industry was suffering a lot—why was the limit reference point not changed much earlier than this, given the huge increase in DFO's staff and the budget increase?

Why has DFO not performed better and acted in a more timely fashion than they have, so that harvesters and plant workers in the processing industry could take advantage of a higher quota, and when groups like the FFAW wanted a 25,000-tonne cod quota last year?

It doesn't make sense that all of a sudden you changed the lower reference point. Why couldn't it have been done last spring?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I want to remind my colleague that I experienced the devastation that the moratorium on the cod fishery created in the communities. As I said, we are going to be cautious. We are going to work with the industry and the organizations. You may rest assured that I will not be imposing another moratorium on the industry.

At present, I am happy with the data that has been collected. I also do not understand why people are saying there were problems in the crab industry last year. Where I come from, the crab fishers all caught their quota of crab. Things are going well in the crab fishery.

My objective is to continue working with people in the fish harvesting sector and the processing industry. I want to ensure that we have fisheries in the future for our children and our great-grandchildren.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Small.

Before I go to Mr. Cormier, I will remind members that once you are recognized for your questions, the five minutes or six minutes, whatever it might be, is your time. You can ask questions. You don't necessarily have to wait for an answer, but it's always good to wait for an answer as well. The time is yours. I am not in control of your time once you start.

We're going now to Mr. Cormier, for six minutes or less, please.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Thank you, Mr.¦Chair.

Minister, I would like to welcome you and congratulate you on your appointment as Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard. It was very nice to see you in my riding this summer. We very much enjoyed meeting with various groups and we also had the opportunity to participate in the Tintamarre held during the Acadian Festival. That was a memorable experience.

We are neighbours, Minister. In fact, we live across from each other. We share the same bay, Chaleur Bay. What you said earlier is music to my ears. You have told the officials in your department that they have to understand the situations in our regions and the day-to-day difficulties in the fisheries.

I know you are familiar with the challenges we have to meet. The mackerel fishery is closed. The spring herring fishery is closed. As you know, this year has probably been the worst year for the fall herring fishery. The shrimp fishery is going extremely badly. The communities that depend on these fisheries, the fishers and the plant workers, need help.

Minister, have you asked the officials in your department and other ministers to look into these issues? As you know, problems like these can have a devastating effect on our communities.

Are you going to do everything you can to help these people, who depend on these fisheries?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr.¦Chair, I thank my colleague for his question.

I was very pleased to go out on a tour, starting with New Brunswick, right after receiving my new portfolio. I wanted to meet the people who work in the fisheries, both in the fish harvesting sector and in the processing sector.

As I said, climate change is a matter of great concern for people involved in fisheries. According to the most recent scientific data, the St.¦Lawrence River and the Gulf of St.¦Lawrence have got warmer. That will certainly have consequences.

In my opening remarks, I said that over the next few years we are going to be navigating uncharted waters, and so it is important that we work together, that we collaborate. I am very aware of what is happening in the fisheries sector. For example, people in the Maritimes who work in the processing industry earn, on average, about¦$30,000 per year. It is therefore important to provide the populations that will be experiencing the impact of climate change with good information and support.

I want to reassure my colleague: discussions are taking place among my colleagues and ministers to find measures to implement, to help the people in these industries.

As well, it is important that the municipalities and provincial governments work with the federal government.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Thank you, Minister.

I have more questions to ask you, but, because I am such a good colleague, I will be splitting my speaking time with my colleague Robert Morrissey.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

[Technical difficulty—Editor]

Minister, welcome to the committee. I will follow up on the question from my colleague Mr. Cormier.

What are your expectations leading into 2024 regarding a mackerel bait fishery for the gulf region, including Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine and Gaspésie?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you for that question.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is currently holding discussions concerning mackerel and herring. We know that there are studies that have been done. We should also have the results of the negotiations undertaken with the United States. The deputy minister may be able to give you more information on that subject.

As I said, this subject is important to me. I have had discussions with some of my colleagues, but also with representatives from the fisheries industry. The people in the industry say that Canada has been much stricter than the United States. The people on the Atlantic coast have talked to me a lot about the difference between the United States and Canada. As I said, I think it is important to continue to collaborate with the actors in the industry to find the most appropriate solutions.

I have to tell you, however, that the herring fishery is difficult this fall. The fishers are not reaching the quotas that were authorized. In addition, the size of the mackerel has really declined in my riding.

Climate change is not helping matters, and this problem is worrying the entire fishing industry. The subject is brought up again at all my meetings, both with people in the fish harvesting sector and with people in the processing sector, even when the fisheries are going well. I am told that they need data, they need to work with the department, now more than ever. I am personally working to restore trust between the department and the industries.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Thank you, Minister.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

We will go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to welcome you, Minister. You know that we are very pleased, in Quebec, to know that we have a francophone minister in the department. In Quebec, fisheries are certainly an economic tool, but they are also an element of our culture. I am very happy to see you in this department.

I am also happy that my colleague Mr. Cormier was able to raise the problems associated with mackerel, herring and shrimp, which are in danger.

We are often told that we do not have the means to determine the status of the resources. We are repeatedly told that the existing measures are not adequate and are not up to date.

Do you hope to find budgets so that you are able do more to measure the extent of the problems associated with the resource in the St. Lawrence and the Gulf of St. Lawrence?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Regarding the St. Lawrence River and the Gulf, the Maurice Lamontagne Institute is able to collect scientific data. Its work also involves the fisheries sector.

I do think that we have to make use of the expertise of the people who go to sea, on the much more specialized scientific expertise, and on the expertise of the industry and the Institute when it comes to research and development.

With respect to shrimp, we should be receiving a report at the end of October. It will then be forwarded to the peers. After that, we will be able to see how things are going.

Obviously, we have work to do when it comes to the science. We are currently navigating uncharted waters in terms of everything going on in the environment. This is causing a lot of concern in the industry.

We also have to make investments. I think of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans as an economic development department. As I said, the fisheries sector provides employment not just to fishers, but also to construction workers. For example, I am thinking of shipyards, the people who build and repair the boats, and so on.

There is an important economic side to fisheries and we have to acknowledge this. It is an economic development sector based on a renewable resource.