Fisheries Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold. You've gone almost a minute over. I'll ask the department or the minister to respond in writing to the committee.

We'll now go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will note that I'll try to free up time for one question from Ms. May.

I want to say off the top that when she was our revenue agency minister, the minister was extremely helpful and effective in dealing with some of our constituents' issues. I have great confidence that “needles will be moved” as we move forward here on some of these issues.

I have two questions. This committee came up with what I think is a landmark report in 2019, “Sharing Risks and Benefits”, all about the regime on the west coast. Do you have any quick reflections on that report, Madam Minister, and any thoughts as to where we might go next?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I am going to give the floor to the deputy minister.

[Annette Gibbons, Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

We were very interested in seeing this report and we have initiated a number of activities to follow up on it. A very important document was published recently: the survey on beneficial ownership related to licence issuance. The committee seemed to have concerns about foreign ownership and what we actually found is that there are very few foreign owners in the fisheries sector.

We have also done a study on fisheries in eastern Canada and the way we manage and regulate the eastern fisheries as compared to the western fisheries. That information is also accessible.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'm sorry. I hate to interrupt, but I have limited time. We do know this. We've heard this answer before. I'm interested in what's going to happen next. Perhaps there's a report coming out that will inform which way the ministry would like to go.

I have a second question. After a couple of years of waiting on a study that Mr. Arnold has suggested, we are going to take up the issue of illegal, unreported and unregulated fisheries.

This is almost half a question for the Coast Guard. Maybe we can get into that in the next hour.

Minister, what would you have us think about as we put together our plan to bring in witnesses and talk about the IUU fishery?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

It will be important for the committee to propose concrete measures to us that will enable us to provide the people in the industry with good information concerning fines, prosecutions and the costs that illegal fishing may cause.

People often tell me, and I also observe, that when we manage to catch people who have been fishing illegally in the act, the fines imposed are very low compared to the profit the people make from this fishing. That is creating huge concern in the industry at present. There is black market activity on the docks, from what fishers are reporting to me. I am also talking about the processing sector. We must therefore work to ensure that the fishery industry is protected. I believe there is no reason for illegal fishing to exist.

To come back to what you were saying earlier about licences, I have to say that I have also received reports of this. The fisheries sector has improved in recent years. Prices are good on the lobster and crab markets, for example. Unfortunately, licences are so expensive that the next generation is unable to access them. This situation is jeopardizing the future of the fisheries. A young person can't go to a bank to borrow $5 million to get a lobster fishing licence or $20 million for a crab fishing licence. I am told that other people have to guarantee these licences at financial institutions.

We have to work on this. We have to be cautious. We have to be able to protect the fisheries. We are going to do this by working with the people in the fisheries sector, with the provincial governments and with committees like yours, through the recommendations you are going to make.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, am I out of time? Do we have a little time left for Ms. May?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have two seconds left, but that's not what I'd call sharing time.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'm sorry, Liz.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll go on to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Minister, I am going to try to summarize all that. There are fears that a critical situation is taking shape regarding shrimp, herring and mackerel. It is already very difficult. The case of seaweed harvesters is also becoming a matter of concern. Harvesters are going to New Brunswick, where there is no regulation, to harvest seaweed. We also have to mention cockles, which can be harvested on one side of Chaleur Bay but not on the other. A lot of irregularities are being committed, particularly in Quebec.

Fishers decry the fact that they are not being consulted, despite their expertise on the ground. They want to protect the resource more than all of us because that is their livelihood. I am thinking of the seaweed harvesters, of course, but also of all the other fishers who know better than anyone how things really are on the ground.

Are you open to the idea of creating a round table or a study table where the fishers could contribute their expertise so that more consideration would be given to it?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

First, it is wrong to say that there is no regulation of seaweed in the Atlantic.

Second, I want to remind my colleague that I am not the Minister of Fisheries of the Gaspé and Quebec. I am the Minister of Fisheries of all of Canada. As I said, seaweed is important because it sustains fish and provides them with shelter where they can feed and reproduce.

It is in all of our interests to want to protect the resource for future generations.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Can we hope that the cod, mackerel and shrimp fishers will be consulted more, that their expertise will make its way to you, and that it will be taken into consideration in the final decisions?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I can tell you that I have been listening to them since 2015 and that I meet with them regularly, because I live with them every day when I go home. I am in a position to report to Ottawa on what is happening on the ground. There is no need to explain to me how things are going. I know, because I live it.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

These people feel powerless at present. Will they be getting answers? What I am hearing them say is that they are desperate and their proposals, the measures they recommend, are not being considered.

Is there an index fishery?

Are there solutions?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

There are always solutions, but I don't know whether they will always be the ones they want. We want to protect the resource. As I said, I knew about the cod fishery. I saw how the boats came back to dock late in the fall, at that time. We have to work together, and regulations are necessary.

Regulations do not always make people happy, but the important thing, in my opinion, is to have discussions. It will not always be easy and there may be emotional reactions. These discussions will, in fact, have major consequences in our communities. It is important to have honest, frank discussions, for the generations of today and of tomorrow.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens. You're a little over, but I wanted to hear the minister answer the question.

I believe Mr. Bachrach is going to speak next, on behalf of the NDP.

You're up for two and a half minutes, sir.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, it's good to see you again.

I met earlier this week with Chief Murphy Abraham from the Lake Babine Nation, which is in northwest B.C. They've been working with British Columbia and Canada on a very ambitious reconciliation initiative. At the heart of that initiative is an incremental fisheries agreement.

Lake Babine Nation co-developed, alongside your department, a term sheet and a budget that would fund that incremental fisheries agreement. They have been waiting since February 2022 to hear back from your government on whether funding will be forthcoming so that the objectives in that incremental fisheries agreement can be realized. Those objectives include increasing the capacity of their fisheries department, developing fisheries management plans and recovery plans for wild stocks, and investing in infrastructure necessary for the management of Skeena wild salmon.

The question is a simple one: Could you provide the committee with a sense of where this request is with your government, and when Lake Babine Nation can hear back in terms of the success of the proposal before cabinet?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

What I can tell you is that reconciliation is important. Our government believes it is essential to respect and recognize the rights of indigenous communities. We have work to do and we are going to continue doing it. We are going to continue working with partners in the indigenous communities to enforce their rights. We also want to ensure that the communication channels with the non-indigenous communities are kept open. The government must therefore also play a role in raising our colleagues' awareness so that everything goes well.

The important thing is to continue working with the existing communities.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you for that, Minister.

The fact is that your department has worked very closely with Lake Babine Nation to develop what is a very compelling vision for increasing their capacity to manage the fishery under their section 35 fisheries rights. They put together a term sheet and budget that are very detailed, and they want to get to work as soon as possible.

The question—perhaps it's for the deputy minister—is this: When can they expect an answer from your government on funding for this agreement they've worked so hard to create?

[Annette Gibbons]

We absolutely recognize the importance of co-development. We go to the table with indigenous partners on whatever issue we're working with them on, in order to try to move forward in a spirit of co-development.

That being said, at the end of the day, governments make decisions. We need time to make decisions on different things for the different communities we're working with. We're still working through that, in this case and in many others.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

We'll now go to Mr. Perkins for five minutes or less.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and officials, for coming.

The first meeting I had with your predecessor was shortly after I was elected in 2021. I know that you, Minister, are new to the role, as is the deputy. At the first meeting I had in November 2021 with your predecessor in her office, with the deputy minister and most of the ADMs for the department, I raised my concerns about the department's approach to the elver fishery. At that time, I said there was a lot of poaching going on, and the department wasn't enforcing the rules.

The following year, in 2022, the department received numerous complaints from the licence-holders with evidence of poaching going on in the rivers. When they phoned C and P to report poaching going on in the rivers, C and P asked the licence-holders if the poachers were first nations, and, if they were first nations, they were told not to go and do anything.

I warned the minister then that it would get out of hand. As people knew that this species, with a $5,000 price tag per kilogram, was now entering the black market, that would bring considerable concern. We raised it again in the winter.

I'm becoming known as “Mr. Elver”. Ask some of your colleagues on the finance committee. I think I spoke in the filibuster there for about an hour and a half on elvers.

Timothy Kerr, who runs C and P in Nova Scotia, in the late winter and spring of this year said that they have enough resources to enforce the law. In March, a month before the season opened, the department was getting daily reports of poaching already on the rivers—including from my neighbours, two minutes from my house. The department ignored it. It went on. The season started. Daily reports, with photographic and video evidence, were given to the department. It was out of hand.

There were thousands of illegal poachers this year. I had warned the minister that this would happen, and it happened. I asked the minister to do something, and I asked the Liberal members to do something. They asked what they were supposed to do. What you're supposed to do is enforce the law. Pick a river, bring in the RCMP as backup, and do the job.

The result of that, and the minister's only response, was to shut down the elver fishery for the legal elver harvesters, ending their season after 18 days and allowing all the poachers to stay on the river.

Do you know, Minister, that the poachers were still on the river this summer? Nothing was done. Absolutely nothing was done by DFO. They were on private property. The RCMP wouldn't come and deal with it, because they said C and P had not called them.

Why is it that your department does not enforce the law?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

We are currently reviewing management practices. I agree with Ms. Murray's decision at the time, to shut down the elver fishery. It is always good to take a step back, because that is the way to make the best possible decisions. That fishery had probably not been regulated previously. Nonetheless, there is still work to be done in that regard.

I also want to tell my colleague that Fisheries and Oceans Canada is there to enforce the law. We are not there to put on a show. We want things to be done the right way. When it comes to poaching, it is important to point out that there are various people engaged in it, not just the indigenous communities, as he seems to want to say. It is also practised by non-indigenous communities.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Absolutely—100%, Minister.