Fisheries Committee on Oct. 26th, 2023

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

In economic terms, of course we have to take into consideration the large number of fishers and all of the socioeconomic activity around the fisheries. So there is a domino effect when a fishery is closed, for example.

Some fishers find themselves with nothing, in economic terms. They have no support and they do not qualify for employment insurance. As the resources decline, there are fewer active processing plants.

Do you have something to offer these people so they can escape their financial hardship?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

What we are doing is that we are working with the people in the industry. As I said earlier, I lived through the groundfish moratorium. At the time, there were programs put in place. In fact, I am very familiar with the consequences of those programs. At the time of the moratorium, I was 30 years old and I was working in mental health. I know the adverse effects of some of the programs that were put in place. In my opinion, we will have to work together so we do not end up in the same situation.

There are other opportunities right now when it comes to the resource. I am thinking of seal and ocean perch in particular. Let's not forget cod; that population is actually doing a bit better. Nonetheless, I am staying very cautious in the case of cod.

As I said, there was a moratorium on groundfish. Almost the same thing was done, the same actions taken, for the shrimp fishery, and we are now seeing what resulted from that. It has not been going well for people in the shrimp fishery for two years now.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Along the same line, we are hearing news about problems being experienced by seaweed harvesters. At present, the seaweed harvesters and the Océan de saveurs company are having to harvest seaweed in New Brunswick.

How can it be that the criteria for harvesting in Quebec cannot be met by these fishers?

What are you proposing, to ensure that this segment of our economy stays in Quebec?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I think the seaweed issue is a priority. Seaweed is an important resource and we have to preserve it. We need seaweed for reproduction, for example. However, as I said, I can't talk about specific cases.

The Atlantic seabed and the seabed where I come from are not necessarily the same. The water temperature is not the same, and where I come from, sea urchins eat the seaweed. As I said, there are enough problems involved in the seaweed harvest and there must not be any more.

Work has to be done on preservation and that is one of my objectives.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

But there is a variable that has to be taken into account. The seaweed has to be pulled out, somewhat like strawberries. When apples ripen, they fall from the trees. In the same way, there is seaweed that detaches by itself, and in fact that is what fishers hate. Even if the fishers want to leave the seaweed where it is, they can't do it.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

My position is very clear on this subject. We are not going to change the law. One of my responsibilities is to preserve the seaweed for future generations. Just as for the fishing industry, I am very aware of what is going on in environmental terms, when it comes to both harvesting and processing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Before my time starts, I would just like to acknowledge, please, that the meeting started early today. That meant I missed the beginning of the minister's presentation to the committee. I'd like you please to add to our next meeting a conversation around ensuring equitable representation from all parties around this table.

I just wanted to point that out.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

This won't come off your time, Ms. Barron. We started the meeting on time. It was probably 11:01 a.m. when we actually hit the gavel. There was quorum in the room at that time. We started right on time.

Your time is yours.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The time on my digital clock was not, in fact, at that time. It was two minutes prior. I realize that it's only two minutes, but it was two minutes prior.

I also realize that quorum was there, but there was not equitable representation from all parties. I think that's the bigger conversation that needs to be had around meetings being started when there are Conservatives and Liberals in the room but not representation from all the parties, in particular when two parties have only one person representing.

I would like to address this at a further meeting. I wanted to point out that two minutes were missed as a result of the meeting starting two minutes early, but I do have questions for the minister. I certainly don't want to take away from utilizing our time with the minister.

First of all, Minister, I would like to welcome you and say congratulations on your role. It's a very important one. I'm sure we are all excited to be able to work with you on the important issues.

Currently, Minister, we've undertaken a study on science, specifically around the CSAS process. Recently, a peer-reviewed paper was published and sent your way from UBC and Dalhousie University, talking about the CSAS process and around concerns about the manner in which science is being utilized by decision-makers in DFO.

I'm wondering, Minister, if you've had a chance to look at this report, and if you will commit to fixing this issue that we are seeing around clear ethical and transparency issues in the decision-making process, which often is looking at business interests and undermining science and public interest.

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Thank you for the question.

I want to say that I think it is important to open the discussions and ensure that Fisheries and Oceans Canada works with the organizations in the industry. There have to be discussions with the people involved: scientists working in the universities, environmental groups, indigenous communities, people in the fish harvesting sector and people in the processing sector, to be able to make the best decisions possible.

All partners operating in the fisheries sector have the same objective: to have sustainable fisheries. We are very familiar with the consequences for rural communities of misusing or mismanaging the resource.

I am open to the idea of working with all the partners and with the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. I know that some colleagues have sat on the committee for a long time and I know that they work very hard and make recommendations. In my opinion, this work is going to be essential.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Minister. I hope the scientists who submitted this report to you will receive an official response to the report soon.

The other question, which I recently also brought up in my letter to you, is around the Prime Minister's mandate to transition open-net pen fish farms out of Pacific waters by the end of 2025. Work is apparently under way on transition planning, which is much overdue, and at the same time, DFO officials continue to receive, consider and approve applications for production increases at existing farms.

In Clayoquot Sound, for example, DFO has granted three farm production increases of 25% to 50%. A further seven applications from the same company are under review by DFO, involving increases in tenure size, investment in new pens, and production increases.

Minister, my question for you is this: Can you tell the committee how you plan to meet the 2025 deadline to remove these open-net fish farms from Pacific waters as well as have a real jobs plan for all those who are impacted?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

My government is determined to implement a responsible transition plan for open-net fish farms. We know that the Pacific salmon stocks are fragile and that protecting them will have long-term positive effects for the west coast.

We are going to continue working on a responsible, realistic and achievable transition plan that will protect the Pacific salmon and at the same time provide support for the workers and communities.

We have to continue to have discussions with the people in the industry, which is also what they are asking for. As I said, these are very emotional conversations and they are not always easy. In my opinion, what is important is that we make the best decisions possible.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Minister, will the 2025 deadline be met for the transition plan you're talking about?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Discussions are ongoing at present with the various partners and with the colleagues who are around the table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, congratulations on being appointed the newest Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard.

I join many Canadian harvesters, anglers and service providers in hoping you will do better than the five predecessors appointed by your Prime Minister over the past eight years. That record of failed appointments started off with Minister Tootoo, whom we barely got to know before he was replaced by Minister LeBlanc, who was chased from the portfolio by conflict of interest in the clam scandal. Next, we had Minister Wilkinson, who said Pacific salmon needed improved habitats, then went on to defer, for decades, the implementation of Canada's first waste-water treatment standards, which were introduced by a Conservative government. Then Minister Jordan put B.C. aquaculture workers on notice, but failed to provide a transition plan for the workers and their communities. The appointment of Minister Murray sparked some hope in B.C. that the workers and harvesters in B.C. who were being put out of work by the government's policies might see some relief, but instead we saw job losses and litigation.

Minister, will you be different from your predecessors, or are you going to continue this sad legacy for the Canadians and jobs relying on Canada's fisheries?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I can tell you that we are always going to do a lot better than what the Conservative Party did. The government will not make all the cuts that you made. Since we came to power, we have continued to invest in small craft ports and to rebuild confidence in the science, for example. We are going to continue working with the people in the industry.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Minister, your five predecessors left a sad legacy behind. Why should we count on you to do any better? We heard you say that you will listen more. To me, that's an indication the previous ministers did not listen enough.

Would you care to respond to that?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

I want to reassure my colleague; I was the Minister of National Revenue for eight years. We spent those eight years together working for Canadians. I have the confidence not only of my colleagues, but also of the industry partners I have met. I am talking about people both in the fish harvesting sector and in the processing industry.

As I said, I think it is important to work with people in the industry and make the best decisions possible. We are currently experiencing difficult situations because of climate warming and its repercussions. We cannot just criticize; we have to find solutions, all of us together, because this industry is important to all of us here around the table, and also to everyone who earns their living in the fisheries sector.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Minister. I agree that we need to find solutions and that solutions are out there.

Minister, aquatic invasive species pose a serious threat to B.C.'s waters. A 2023 provincial report stated that if invasive mussels are allowed to invade B.C., new annual expenses for B.C. could reach $129 million per year for the maintenance of infrastructure. For far too long, federal DFO funds for preventing the spread of aquatic invasive species have not been distributed equitably for western Canada.

Will you work with your officials to balance the allocation of DFO funds for aquatic invasive species and support the protection of water and fish habitats in British Columbia?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

Teamwork is underway with the representatives of the provinces. You talk about invasive mussels, but we also have to mention green crab, Asian carp, and other invasive species.

Vessel traffic is constantly increasing and that creates problems on our coasts. It is therefore in our interests to all work together to find solutions and manage the situation. The solutions are not simple. They are complex and they call for everyone's participation. We must not believe that we will eliminate an invasive species overnight.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I agree, Madam Minister. Part of the solution is prevention. The federal government has not lived up to what's been requested by agencies.

Madam Minister, the Cohen commission report of 2012 told the previous government that timely and thorough scientific investigations were needed to determine the effects of B.C. salmon farms on wild pacific salmon. Why did your government fail to ensure the completion of the strategic salmon health initiative, which had already conducted years of work? Will you work with the strategic salmon health initiative partners to ensure that the science recommendation by Cohen 11 years ago is finally completed?

[Diane Lebouthillier, Liberal, Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC]

We have carried out nine studies in the Pacific. If you want further details, I can give the floor to DFO's deputy minister who will be able to give you details on this subject.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Excuse me. I'd like to know why your department failed to follow through on the four phases with the strategic salmon health initiative. You've been in your position since the summer. Is that something you should have been briefed on?