Fisheries Committee on Feb. 1st, 2024

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Hello to everyone, and thanks again for your testimony.

There's no question that when I hear “funding” my ears perk up. We could always use more money. In fact, it's my understanding that in the fall economic statement we had money allocated for DFO and the Coast Guard, which the Conservatives voted against. Nonetheless, enforcement is a huge priority for all of us around this table.

I wonder if you could walk through a couple of things for me because I think it's important, again, not just for all of us here but for all those watching. My understanding is that, when charges and law enforcement are in play, it's not conducted out of the minister's office. There's a line, the blue line or bright line. Can you talk about where politics end and law enforcement begins?

[Adam Burns]

I'll take that. Thanks for the question.

That's absolutely true. There is no direction to our enforcement officers in terms of pursuing charges. Indeed, our enforcement officers observe and investigate what's going on and build a case report, which they then work with the Public Prosecution Service on. It is ultimately a decision of the Public Prosecution Service as to whether or not charges would be pursued in court.

That is the process. Indeed, there's no involvement outside of the direct chain of command of conservation and protection within the department to inform which activities or files might be brought to the Public Prosecution Service and what investigations would be undertaken in that way.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you for that, Mr. Burns.

With the last series of witnesses, I talked about conservation and protection. I think many of us around the table have had the pleasure and the privilege of meeting the men and women in conservation and protection. They are doing a lot more than ever on a whole host of fronts in a variety of provinces.

I'm wondering what we can do to improve the ability of the officers to do their job more completely and without risk of danger. These men and women are facing an increasingly alarming amount of danger. It is in relation to IUU. It's in relation to bad actors. It's in relation to individual bad actors, organized crime and all of these.

I think people need to realize this. These C and P officers live in these communities. When they go to the grocery store, they're known as C and P officers. They do such a great job. It's that blue line.

I'm wondering what we can be doing to help C and P.

Mr. Burns, that's for you, but it's for others around the table there as well.

[Adam Burns]

We work on a daily basis with conservation and protection, reviewing the policies and procedures and ensuring that the direction they're receiving from their chain of command is being provided to them in an appropriate way. We're ensuring that the rules and the lay of land are clear to them and that they're adequately resourced with the appropriate tools, as well as the appropriate ongoing training. It's not just about that initial training. It's about ongoing, updated training.

It's ensuring that they have the best available intelligence information, and it's understanding what the state of play is, if you will, to ensure they're appropriately equipped to be able to do their job.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Burns.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have one and a half minutes.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

For the record, I seldom get the six-minute slot. The five-minute and the 2.5-minute slots are usually my jam. This just gives me a little bit more time to ask.

For Mr. Burns or the others, what can we be doing better right now, from both an inshore and an offshore perspective, on IUU in terms of utilizing technology?

Our previous witnesses talked about the importance of looking at e-logs and dockside monitoring. That's fair enough, but are there things we are working on now that you can share with us that may not necessarily mean more people, but may mean using technology or other means to cut down on the amount of IUU?

[Adam Burns]

We have received investments to help the department implement the fisheries monitoring policy across key fish stocks over the coming years. That policy is really meant to review the full scope of information that enforcement, science and fisheries managers need from a particular fishery, and then to look at the various ways we can obtain that information.

We'll be undertaking that work over the coming months and years to improve the monitoring on a fishery-by-fishery basis. That might include e-logs and different roles for dockside monitoring, at-sea observers, etc. Each fishery has its unique set of information needs. Each fishery is operated in its unique way, so it's important to do that analysis on a fishery-by-fishery basis.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway. I don't know what jam you're in, but you were 15 seconds over.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses. Some of them have appeared before our committee before, so it's good to have them back.

Earlier, we were told that patrols declined by 30% on the Atlantic side and that it was due to the obsolescence of the ships and the lack of resources to make the upgrades on time.

In Quebec, we have the Davie shipyard, which has the capacity to meet 50% of Canada's shipbuilding needs and meets the highest technology standards. We have been fighting for several years for the Davie shipyard to have its share of the market, its share of shipbuilding projects and its share of contracts. While the Davie shipyard is waiting for contracts, other shipyards elsewhere in Canada are still not able to meet their commitments for upgrades. That's not counting the cost overruns. Today, we find ourselves in a situation where we do not have enough ships for the patrol fleet.

Does that decision come from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans? Is it a directive from the top, from the Minister of Finance, for example? How can it be explained that, despite the fact that a shipyard could deliver a certain number of ships on time, the government decided instead to fund the upgrading of ships carried out by other Canadian shipyards, which have not yet been able to meet their commitments?

Are the decisions that are being made on investments, on shipbuilding and on ship upgrades coming from your department, or are they stemming from a directive from a higher level of government?

[Adam Burns]

I'll let Marc Mes answer that.

[Marc Mes]

I thank the member for her question.

This is a very good question. The Davie shipyard, of course, is one of the three yards under the national shipbuilding strategy that have been recently announced. It will be tasked with building the Coast Guard's six large program icebreakers in the coming years, along with the second polar-class icebreaker.

At the same time, the tendering process.... Working with PSPC on putting these contracts out for vessel life extension and major refits is a process whereby it's tendered and people then bid on those contracts and go through the process set by PSPC. A winner is determined through the bidding process, and those contracts are awarded.

Through the NSS, the three large shipyards—ISI, the Vancouver Shipyards and now Davie—are really the focus of the safety and security of the fleet of the future, including the building and renewal of the Coast Guard's fleet. In particular, with Davie, there are the program icebreakers and the second polar-class icebreaker in the years to come.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

Is the fact that we have a 30% shortage in patrol vessels today due to a lack of foresight or to a lack of vigilance? It could have been foreseen that these ships would end up needing repairs or upgrades. The Davie shipyard could have even built new ships.

Isn't there something that has been missed over time? Had nothing been missed, there would be no shortage of ships.

[Marc Mes]

Again, I thank the member for her question.

I'll answer this one again.

This is quite simple. The Coast Guard developed and continues to renew its fleet renewal plan. The planning of ships, going back to 2012 and even 2007, has evolved, and the government has had the foresight to help fund the replacement of various classes of our ships.

You spoke about the last two years and the 20%, as you alluded to a lack of Coast Guard presence and patrols in the NAFO region. Part of that is in the vessel life extension and major refits of these vessels, because they are older vessels, they do take longer. For instance, if I look at the latest ship, the Coast Guard Cygnus, which is one of those offshore patrol vessels in NAFO, it took a little bit longer than a year to do a lot of that vessel life extension only because of the aging vessel. However, that's part of the work that it does, and it's an older vessel.

That being said, it will be replaced in 2026-27 and then 2027-28 by the new Arctic offshore patrol Coast Guard variant vessels that are currently being built in ISI. We will be receiving those replacement vessels in the next four to five years, but the plan is in place, working with PSPC, on the replacement of those vessels through all classes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here and for some returning again.

My first question is to you, Mr. Burns.

Those around this table are probably going to get tired of me reading this testimony, but I feel that it is particularly impactful and I would like to get your thoughts on it.

We had Mr. Russ here from the Coastal First Nations-Great Bear Initiative during this study, and he pointed out that there are, in his words, “inaccurate and sensationalist accusations involving first nations in illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing in Canada.” He pointed out, “The further criminalization and vilification of first nations looking to exercise their most basic inherent and aboriginal rights is not the answer.”

I'm wondering if you could share some thoughts around that particular testimony.

[Adam Burns]

I would say that the government is very committed to reconciliation with indigenous communities. What we seek to do is work with communities to understand what their perspectives are on what their rights-based activities are as well as what their economic objectives from the fishery might be. We seek to work with them in order to further those objectives.

That is what we are focused on, and on all three coasts negotiators from my group are engaged with nations doing just that and working collaboratively to try to further those interests.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Not to point out specific words, but I noticed you used the word “perspectives” on rights, and that made me think about the fact that we have had many witnesses in this study point out that they felt there was a lack of understanding around the obligation to respect and protect indigenous inherent treaty rights and the obligations under UNDRIP. I'm wondering if you're seeing the same thing in your day-to-day work.

[Adam Burns]

What we seek to do is understand the asserted or court-affirmed rights of a particular nation and work with them on furthering those rights.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Great. Thank you.

Do you feel that at DFO there are opportunities for staff to better understand how to best work with nations to ensure that these rights are being upheld?

[Adam Burns]

We work with our staff on a regular basis. The folks in our negotiations area who work directly with nations on undoing the things that I've described earlier are absolutely top notch in what they do and have a very deep understanding of indigenous rights and of the approaches that are being undertaken related to reconciliation. However, we certainly do seek to work with staff throughout the department to help them better understand all of those things as well.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Through the chair, Mr. Russ also went on to talk about how the first nations are ready and willing to work with the federal government on a nation-to-nation, government-to-government basis to reconcile the rights and jurisdictions of their member nations with those asserted by Canada.

It sounds like some of the witnesses are saying that the work that they would like to see to ensure that those rights are being asserted is not being done. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that, and perhaps, if you could, provide a bit of a response to Mr. Russ's comments that the nations he's referencing are willing and able to work alongside.

[Adam Burns]

Through the chair, I would say that the department is actively engaged with a number of nations on a variety of aspects, including various elements related to shared decision-making, various aspects of engagement related to the management of the fisheries, and understanding their rights, be they asserted or court-affirmed, and their economic objectives. Indeed, we are very actively engaged with a number of nations. I can't speak to the specifics of one particular negotiation at this moment, but the department is very actively engaged with a number of nations, as I said, on all three coasts.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

I'm wondering whether DFO has made their position clear on moderate livelihood and food, social and ceremonial rights. It feels like, when we're sitting around this table, there's the lack of a common consensus on what those treaty rights mean and how they apply to fishing rights.

I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that.