Fisheries Committee on Feb. 1st, 2024

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

We heard from a witness recently, Mr. Russ from the Coastal First Nations-Great Bear Initiative. I'm just taking a quote out of what he said in his testimony. He talked about “inaccurate and sensationalist accusations involving first nations in illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing in Canada.” He was identifying that as something that happening quite frequently, and he pointed out, “The further criminalization and vilification of first nations looking to exercise their most basic inherent and aboriginal rights is not the answer.”

I'm wondering if you can provide any thoughts on those remarks.

[Prof. Naiomi Metallic]

I think that is an excellent summary of some of the public sentiment.

When I was invited to come and I was reading the different transcripts, I had these same concerns about how, for some witnesses, indigenous fisheries were being framed as IUU as opposed to constitutional rights that have yet to be fully implemented. I agree with his statement.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Metallic.

I'm going to ask my last question to Mr. Hawkins.

Mr. Hawkins, this has been a bit of a focus of ours for a while, looking at the data collection and how to more effectively collect it. A couple of things that came out, in addition to privacy concerns, were around connectivity, so sometimes fishers were out of range. Also, standards are set and then, by the time the technology is developed to meet those standards, the standards are then changed by DFO.

I'm wondering if you can provide some thoughts on that.

[Julian Hawkins]

Yes. There are a couple of things.

We've been working in fisheries for a while. If you don't have a solution for when the fishermen can't get a signal, then you've really left them up a creek.

Certainly, our products work with or without a signal. When you get a signal, you can synchronize the information you put in before. It's not great. In the future, people will probably be able to pick up the Internet everywhere, but there's certainly a solution for that.

I'm sorry. What was the second part of your question?

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

It was around the standards being set.

[Julian Hawkins]

Yes.

The other thing about fisheries is that the rules change all of the time, and not just in Canada. Quite often it's for good reasons. It's not always for bad reasons. You have to design software that is adaptable. Even during the process of working with DFO and the national e-log standards, our team actually found that there were some open issues that hadn't yet been identified. Again, we were asked to make changes.

Any system should be able to make changes within just a few weeks. It has to be a living system. If you're recording things that people needed to know 10 years ago, then you're not recording what they need to know today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll go now to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses here today. Your testimony is invaluable.

I'll start with Ms. Metallic.

You described the justification test established in the Sparrow case. The two prongs to this test are, first, that there be a valid objective, and second, that the government has to show that it is following a certain process that ensures that its treatment of aboriginal treaty rights is in line with the honour of the Crown and the government's fiduciary duty.

In the terms of a valid objective, is it your understanding that conservation is a valid objective?

[Prof. Naiomi Metallic]

Yes, it is, but it has to be proven. There has to be evidence to establish that it is indeed a valid objective in that particular context.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

The Supreme Court has identified that the conservation and management of natural resources can be part of the valid objective. In fact, with the commercial context in the Gladstone case, the court also noted that there can be additional objectives, such as addressing economic and regional fairness within an industry, as well as historical reliance and participation by non-indigenous groups in an industry.

Ms. Metallic, would you agree with this statement?

[Prof. Naiomi Metallic]

Yes. I said it in my submissions as well.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Are you aware of illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing occurring in Canadian waters?

[Prof. Naiomi Metallic]

I have not directly witnessed any.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you for that.

I will move on to Mr. Young now.

Mr. Young, you mentioned that organized crime is now being more involved in IUU. Could you elaborate a little further on that? In particular, is it because of the value of some species and the value of the catch? Is the monetary value driving that?

[Mark Young]

Certainly, the value of the catch is part of that. You can see that some of the tuna catch goes for thousands of dollars per fish and the income you can receive for that.

For organized crime, there is also the context of using fishing vessels that appear to be engaged in fishing, but there are opportunities to take advantage of potential arms trafficking or drug trafficking associated with the fishing vessel. Typically, those types of fishing vessels that might be involved with that have a master or owners who do not operate at all times in compliance with fisheries' rules and regulations.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

You mentioned that dockside reporting and inspections could be more useful than actual patrols and monitoring.

How would that be effective in the case of foreign vessels that don't necessarily report in Canada or the U.S.? How would you monitor it at the docks in those countries and be sure that accurate reporting was coming back to Canada or the U.S.?

[Mark Young]

There is the FAO's port state measures agreement or PSMA. The importance and value of it is that it is a global treaty. It becomes more effective when more countries sign up to the port state measures agreement and have the obligations that are in there.

There are obligations associated with sharing information and data for inspections conducted in port, especially when there's a risk of IUU activity associated with the vessel. It provides opportunities for engagement with the appropriate flag state and the sharing of information. FAO is developing a global information exchange system associated with the port state measures agreement that provides opportunities for that sharing of information, which would be applicable to both Canada and the U.S.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I have just one more quick question before my time runs out. Is the participation in that group and organization voluntary, and are only the good apples participating? Are the bad apples not there?

[Mark Young]

We are finding that more and more countries are signing up for the port state measures agreement. Certainly, it would be beneficial if all countries did sign up for it, but the more countries that do sign up for it, the greater the opportunities it provides.

The PSMA is not the only mechanism. Just having port state measures, even without signing on to the agreement, are effective. Having agreements between countries that share a maritime boundary line and their being able to share information are important factors that feed into that. It's not necessarily just having to sign up to the PSMA. It's also having effective port state measures in place that address those issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold.

We will now go to Mr. Kelloway for five minutes or less, please.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for providing some really interesting testimony. I appreciate it. IUU has a tremendous impact. All the MPs on this committee have heard a lot, but we've also witnessed a lot. Most of us are from a coastal community. We've seen the impact of IUU in terms of the extraction, in fact, of community wealth. We've talked about it here. Witnesses have talked about the involvement of organized crime but also the impact on the species, whatever species we're talking about, in terms of sustainability.

Before I go to you, Professor Metallic, I want to make sure I have your title right. Are you Dr. Metallic or Professor Metallic?

[Prof. Naiomi Metallic]

I am mid-Ph.D. You can call me Professor Metallic. Thank you.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

You're welcome.

Professor Metallic, on Tuesday we heard from indigenous witnesses from the west coast. Something kind of stayed with me from their testimony. They talked about C and P officers not understanding their rights well enough to do proper enforcement. I'm wondering if you would agree with that.

You talked a fair amount in your testimony and also your answers today about the importance of education. Oftentimes when I'm out and about in different communities, I really get the sense that there's a dissonance, or not a shared literacy, on a whole host of things among different groups, from first nations to fishers, from government to first nations, or from first nations to fishers.

I'm wondering if you could speak to that for us.

[Prof. Naiomi Metallic]

I don't have any direct experience with that, but there's been some excellent coverage of that by the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network. Angel Moore in particular is a journalist who has gone in depth and I guess under cover. She got infiltrated into the Facebook of our C and P officers, where in fact there were several disparaging, discriminatory and racist comments about that, and she reported on some of these issues.

I think that's an element to all of these issues and does speak to education, cultural competency and the need for quite a bit of this in this area. That's not to paint all officers in that respect—

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

No, of course not.