Fisheries Committee on Nov. 6th, 2025

[Daniel J. Fleck]

If we have a licensing policy for non-indigenous people, there are certain things they can do. For the indigenous group, there are things that they can do that don't apply. However, in a commercial fishery, if it's commercial, it's commercial; it doesn't matter who's doing it. The corporatization could be.... If an individual has a fishing licence, if they can have one lobster licence, that's what they're fishing. A first nations community might have 10 lobster licences, and they can lease those 10 licences out to a corporation or entity. That's the corporatization that goes on there. Let's say an individual—I've known this myself—a gentleman, a member of a first nation, goes to the band council and says, “I'd like to fish a lobster licence this upcoming season,” and he's told, “Well, give me $100,000, and you can have it.” When he asks, “Why $100,000?”, the answer is, “Well, that's what the non-indigenous corporation is giving us for it.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. d'Entremont.

I'm sorry. We're going to have to stop it there.

Mr. Deschênes, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Fleck, if I understand correctly, you worked at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans for 26 years, from 1994 to 2020.

Over the past few weeks, the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans has been hearing some rather disturbing testimony about the lack of enforcement and about illegal fishing taking place in full sight of fishery officers, who don't intervene.

Can you give me your point of view on the current situation based on your experience?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

I might have misspoken with my years; it's actually 33 and a half years of service that I have had.

With regard to the experience of the officers, right now they're highly trained, fully capable, eager, intelligent people who want to serve the public and do the job they've been trained to do. Recently we have seen an uptick in the action and enforcement levels of activity and stuff. We're hoping that the Public Prosecution Service.... Officers have told me that it has not endorsed some of their cases. The Public Prosecution Service has Crown agents in the province who prosecute these cases. Officers have told me that they've brought very sound, strong cases that should be prosecuted, and they've been turned down. That comes from the Public Prosecution Service. Everyone believes it's from political interference and direction saying to not proceed with those.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

In the examples you brought up, you said that, although fishery officers did their job to document illegal fisheries, Crown prosecutors did not lay charges. You also referred to political pressure.

In those examples, who was supposed to be protected and who gave the order to protect them?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

An officer can gather all the information and they can prepare a prosecution package, but they need the Crown's approval before they can actually go to the court and lay the information to proceed with it, and they're not receiving that approval. It dies before the charge is ever laid, because they need pre-approval to lay that charge. It could be against an indigenous person.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Mr. Chair, I want to submit something. I find it hard to accept the fact that, in a G7 country where the rule of law must be respected, we see that a piece of legislation like the Fisheries Act is not enforced in too many cases.

Again this morning, the program Enquête reported that a contraband network is operating in plain sight.

We've heard a lot of testimony that all points in the same direction: We feel like we're in a country where legislation is not being enforced. The problem is not just theoretical; it concerns the protection of public resources and funds.

I think the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans needs to act, Mr. Chair. I think we need to get to the bottom of this. I want to give notice of the following motion.

My motion reads as follows: That, in light of the information obtained in the course of this study regarding the law enforcement barriers faced by fisheries officers, the Committee add at least three additional meetings and invite the following witnesses to answer questions on this matter: (a) Fisheries officers and/or union representatives for fisheries officers; (b) The Conservation and Protection Directorate of the Department of Fisheries; (c) The Deputy Minister and her Associate Deputy Minister; (d) Representatives of the RCMP; (e) Representatives of the Coast Guard; and (f) Any other witnesses the Committee deems relevant.

Since this motion is moved on notice, everyone will have time to receive it and think about it. We can discuss it at the next meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.

Your motion has been moved. I stopped the clock while you were reading it. We can come back to this at a future meeting.

You still have the floor for almost three minutes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Fleck, let's continue our discussion.

You say that cases have been prepared and that Crown prosecutors have not approved the initiation of legal proceedings. You mentioned that the cases involved first nations members.

How do you explain this situation?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

I really wish I could give a good explanation for why that is. I can only assume it's political interference and people don't want to make waves, for whatever reason.

It's not only the indigenous community. There are people in the non-indigenous community who are, perhaps, involved in an illegal activity, and the cases just do not go forward. It impacts people. As we heard in previous testimony, why would someone go out and risk their life to do the job if the cases aren't going to go anywhere?

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

I have met with indigenous communities, and we were able to discuss the positive benefits that access to the commercial fishery enables them to enjoy. I'm convinced that there must be a large number of people within indigenous communities who disapprove of illegal fishing.

[Daniel J. Fleck]

That is correct. They don't see it with a good eye.

I will say that our association has close to 700 members, and we do have indigenous members and families in our association. We represent them.

It's bad for everyone.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

So Fisheries and Oceans Canada authorities are not showing any political will to fight illegal fishing.

[Daniel J. Fleck]

That is correct. There's no willingness from above for the officers to proceed with these cases.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Fleck.

If I have a few minutes left, I'd like to ask you a question, Mr. Hutchings.

How do you view the whole issue of the lack of enforcement of the Fisheries Act?

[Keith Hutchings]

It comes down to the legislative and regulated authority to do so, and it appears that exists. The question, as the prior witness just spoke to, then becomes why this isn't being instituted and directed as it should be.

It's fundamental to the overall operation of our fishery and resource management going forward. There should be no exceptions in terms of the regulatory framework that governs any fishery. It's tied to resource management. If there's someone breaking the law, they should be prosecuted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.

I think there are some issues with the screen.

It looks like the online stream is working fine for the video.

That finishes the first round of questioning.

We're going to move to the second round, and I'll pass the floor over to Mr. Small for five minutes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Fleck.

Mr. Fleck, you heard Mr. Foss talk about quota and licences being purchased by indigenous groups, and that quota is being made available through controlling agreements. Do you have any thoughts on that? Do you think this exists?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

Yes, we know it exists. My association only represents lobster fisheries. Lobster licences are bound by the owner-operator and fleet separation policy, which means boots on boats. The licence holder is the captain and has to run the boat, but an indigenous community might have 10 or 15 and some have 17 licences just in lobster. They can lease them out to one corporation, and that corporation will approach people such as Mr. Foss, draw them in, and get them to operate that on an hourly wage or for a pittance, a stipend or whatever you want to call it.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

You were working with DFO conservation and protection in 2015 when the current Liberal government took power.

Do you have any knowledge of these types of things possibly happening in 2015, or has it increased with this current Liberal management after seven different ministers in 10 years?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

It was occurring before 2015 and during 2015, and it still occurs today.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Has it gone down?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

Negative. No sir.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Has the frequency and prevalence of corporate concentration increased?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

I will say yes, the reason being, right now, in LFA 33 or 34, in order to buy a licence and a boat and the gear, depending on the condition of the equipment, you're looking at $1.4 million to $1.6 million. With the financing that's available now and the economy, most individuals do not have that upfront money to get involved in that, whereas a corporation can front that.