Evidence of meeting #11 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was enforcement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.
Given that we only have two witnesses in the next panel, we're going to extend this panel a bit further. We'll have four minutes for both the Conservatives and the Liberals.
I'll hand the floor over to Mr. Gunn for four minutes.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Foss, first of all, I'm so sorry to hear about what has happened to you and your family and everything you've had to endure on a personal level with corporate consolidation and control.
Everyone I talk to in the industry, fishermen and others seem to agree that decisions at DFO are driven by politics and ideology, not by science, common sense or what's better for the fishermen. Even Liberal MPs in the government that's been in power for 10 years seem to say this themselves.
For example, they said, “The Liberals are making politically driven fisheries decisions that ignore the science and put the livelihoods of harvesters at risk.” That's Liberal MP Chris d'Entremont.
“This Liberal government refuses to show its homework. We get decisions with no data, no transparency and no explanation.” Again, that's Liberal MP Chris d'Entremont.
“The Liberals talk about consultations, but it's a box-ticking exercise. They've already made up their minds before fishermen even sit down.” That's Liberal MP Chris d'Entremont.
If Liberal MPs are saying this publicly, why do you think that nothing changes? Why do you think that decisions just continue to be made based on politics and ideology and not on what's best for the fishermen who are out legitimately risking their lives on the high seas to provide an important resource for our economy and to feed themselves and their families?
Fisherman, As an Individual
I can't speak on behalf of other people, but I think it's all political. I think there are politicians in the pocket of merchants. It's just the way I view things.
I got to know the investigation team a little bit throughout the months while working with them and stuff. It seemed like they were almost as hurt over all this as I was. All their hard work pretty much went to waste. That's the way they viewed it.
As I said, they were ready to knock on Quinlan's door and do the rest of the investigation.
Just look at the donations there in the last voting that happened in Newfoundland. Every merchant donated to the Liberal candidacy. Nobody donated to PCs. Those merchants want Liberals in for some reason. I don't know what it is. As I said, I'm just a grade 12 graduate and politics are out of my realm, but they have to stop using people to keep product in their plant. It's just as simple as that.
They're not supposed to own quota, yet they own half the quota that's around the island.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Do you believe there is too much corporate power and corporate consolidation in the industry today?
Fisherman, As an Individual
There is way too much, yes. My God, yes.
There are boat owners who are scared to even call another fish company. The ASP is basically one company.
We have things going on back home now and the ASP is trying to bury this guy who came in from outside—this outside buyer thing that we all fought for. I actually spoke to the owner of that company a couple of days ago and he is probably not going to survive the legal fees. They have him in court right now because he wouldn't grade crab.
The government has to step in here. Someone smarter than I am has to keep an eye on this stuff.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Mr. Nelson, I hear a lot from commercial and recreational fishermen about the enormous amount of respect they have for frontline DFO officers, which seems to stand in sharp contrast to the near complete contempt a lot of them have for DFO bureaucracy and key decision-makers in Ottawa.
Does that track with your experience? If so, why do you think that is?
Liberal
As an Individual
Yes, I agree with that. I will refer back to the structural problem as the main issue and budgets.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Gunn.
To finish this round, I will now give the floor to Mr. Morrissey for four minutes.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
For the record, when we took government in 2015, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans was gutted of enforcement personnel in the science department. That's a fact that's easily checked. We have dramatically increased funding in those two areas. In enforcement it was by hiring well over a hundred—a couple of hundred—enforcement officers. More can always be done, but pointing fingers is not going to solve any particular issue.
I commend my colleague, Mr. d'Entremont, for always being articulate and speaking up for the people he represents in the fishery there. I understand that in that area, because of his advocacy, more charges have been laid in the past five weeks than have been done in years.
My question is for each one of you.
What part of the act, for the record, would you like to see changed? The reference was made about the delays that the Fisheries Act puts in place.
I want to go to Mr. Boudreau because it's unacceptable to see what's happening with the gaspereau fishery in that part of Atlantic Canada. It should be unacceptable to anybody. A simple investment in infrastructure could allow the species to get to a habitat they need.
What do we need to be stronger and clearer in the act to avoid simply using the courts to avoid doing what they have to do?
President, Maritime Gaspereau Industry Association
It's timelines and a “must enforce”. That's—
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Could you expand a little more on the timeline and the “must enforce”?
President, Maritime Gaspereau Industry Association
Yes. The timeline is related to the species of fish, and that's why I say it should be based on the life cycle of a fish, because they all change. To say 10 years of a four-year life cycle species would be wrong, I think. You're not going to build a new fish ladder in a year. It takes time, but 15 years is unacceptable.
A “must” component is that the Fisheries Act must be enforced, because that will put some of the onus back on the higher-ups in DFO to make sure the budget is there for science and C and P to make it less discretionary.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you for the clarity.
Mr. Nelson, do you have specific changes to the act that could deal with some of the issues this committee was presented with today?
As an Individual
There might be some minor changes, but on occasions like he described involving a dam, I was actually involved in a year-long investigation in British Columbia with BC Hydro about a dam. They are very complicated investigations. It's not a simple matter of pulling the plug. There are water management issues. It is really complex, and there are very few officers who would be capable of taking on such an investigation without a whole lot of training. It's more likely an issue of capacity and experts, and not just fishery officers but habitat experts and scientists who can back up the investigation and put the charges forward if they are warranted.
Liberal
Fisherman, As an Individual
Just let people do their jobs. I'm confident that if the enforcement team in DFO could have, they would have laid charges in my case.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Morrissey.
That completes our first panel. I would like to thank our witnesses for appearing today in person and for sharing their stories and experience. Your testimony is going to be incredibly helpful as we finalize a report from this study, which will have recommendations to the government for future action.
Thank you again for being here today.
We are going to briefly suspend while we set up for our next panel.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'd like to resume for our second panel.
Before going further, I would like to make some comments for the benefit of our new witnesses.
Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those who are participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic and please mute your microphone when you are not speaking.
For interpretation, those using the Zoom application have the choice of floor, English or French at the bottom of their screen. Those in the room can use their headset and select the desired channel.
I'll remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.
I would like to now welcome our witnesses for the second panel.
Appearing in person we have Daniel Fleck, executive director, Brazil Rock 33/34 Lobster Association.
Appearing by video conference we have Keith Hutchings, managing director, Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation.
With that, we're now going to hear opening statements from the witnesses, for five minutes or less, starting with Mr. Fleck.
Daniel J. Fleck Executive Director, Brazil Rock 33/34 Lobster Association
Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. I'm the executive director of the Brazil Rock 33/34 Lobster Association, and I thank you for the opportunity to speak today on this critical review of the Fisheries Act.
The legislation before you dictates the future of hundreds of coastal communities and a vital sector of our economy. Our position is simple, that to secure a sustainable, equitable and resilient Canadian fishery, we must institutionalize key protections that currently exist only as vulnerable departmental policies.
We have four recommendations for your consideration.
One is to strengthen owner-operator policy. The owner-operator and fleet separation policies are the economic backbone of Canada's coastal regions. They ensure that the wealth generated by the resource stays in the hands of the independent family enterprises and flows directly back to the communities that depend on fishing. They are the firewall against corporatization and absentee ownership.
The current issue, however, is that this foundational policy only exists as a department regulation. This makes it legally vulnerable and subject to administrative change, which is an unacceptable risk for the thousands of families whose livelihoods depend on it. Our clear recommendation is legal entrenchment. We urge you to amend the Fisheries Act to explicitly define and legally mandate the principles of owner-operator and fleet separation.
Specifically, the act should ensure that commercial fishing licences and quota allocations are held by individuals who are actively engaged in the harvest. By that I mean boots on the boat and residing in the community dependent on that fishery. This amendment provides the legal stability needed to protect independent family enterprises and ensure long-term coastal resilience.
Two is to incorporate the fishery as a strategic national asset. Canada's wild fishery is not just a commodity. It's a strategic national asset. It is vital to food security, a powerful expression of our sovereignty and inseparable from the cultural identity of our coastal towns, and yet the act and extension often manages it primarily through a narrow, short-term commercial lens.
We believe this resource requires strong legal protection.
Three is to ensure harvester knowledge is foundational in DFO science. Independent harvesters are the eyes and ears on the water, possessing decades of unparalleled local ecological knowledge. They see the shifts in stock distribution, the impacts of environmental change and the real-world performance of gear long before scientific models can detect them. This knowledge is indispensable.
The current system suffers from a disconnect where DFO science often operates in isolation. This can lead to management decisions that are scientifically sound on paper but impractical or inaccurate on the water.
Our recommendation is an integration mandate. Legally mandate the integration of harvester knowledge into DFO's scientific assessment and management process.
The most effective mechanism is the establishment of formal, mandatory comanagement advisory panels for all major fisheries. Harvester representatives on these panels must have defined roles and resources to contribute their observational data before stock assessment models are finalized. Critically, DFO must be required to explicitly document how this harvester-provided data was used or why it was reconciled or rejected in the final advice to the minister. This is the only way to improve accuracy and increase the legitimacy of management decisions.
Four is regarding commercial licensing policies. Our final, and perhaps most urgent, recommendation concerns the commercial licensing policies of Atlantic Canada. There are presently two versions of commercial licensing policies, one for indigenous persons and one for non-indigenous persons.
It is our recommendation that licences issued for commercial fishing should be under one policy. Commercial fishing is just that—commercial—regardless of who is doing the fishing. To allow different policies introduces the very real possibility of the corporatization of the commercial communal fishery or foreign ownership, and it removes the ability for indigenous persons to realize the financial gains derived from the fishery.
The Marshall decisions I and II said the Mi'kmaq have the right to participate in the “pursuit of a moderate livelihood”. If allowed to become policy, the proposed commercial communal licensing policy for Atlantic Canada—of which we have only seen a presentation, not the actual draft—will be extremely detrimental to the future of commercial fishing in Atlantic Canada. Our recommendation is to amend the Fisheries Act to require the establishment of one commercial fishing licensing policy.
Mr. Chair and committee, the four recommendations presented today are not simply policy preferences but are structural necessities for a sustainable future: one, legal entrenchment of owner-operator; two, strategic designation of the fishery as a national asset; three, mandatory integration of harvester knowledge into DFO science; and four, one commercial licensing policy for Atlantic Canada.
I thank you for the time to be here. I welcome any questions you may have.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Fleck.
Next we're going to go to Mr. Hutchings for five minutes or less.
Keith Hutchings Managing Director, Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation
Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to present to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans and your committee's review of the Fisheries Act.
My name is Keith Hutchings. I am the managing director of the Canadian Centre for Fisheries Innovation located in St. John's and driven by an industry-led board of directors representing the harvesting, processing and aquaculture sectors. The centre is a conduit between the fishing sectors, academia, science and research institutions, and companies that support the industry.
In the review of the Fisheries Act, I believe we need to focus on a renewed commitment to the social and economic benefits of the industry while ensuring its continued sustainability through collaborative knowledge sharing that supports innovation, technology adoption and applied research initiatives to maximize the opportunities of the seafood industry. The resource challenges and ecosystem shifts of recent decades have understandably focused our attention on and dedication to ensuring that our resource endowments are being sustainably managed. Though we should never lose sight of the sustainable fisheries imperative, we also need to ensure that we extract the maximum value from our seafood resources.
CCFI has a 30-year proven record of collaboration with industry and academia applied research supporting resource sustainability and increased economic output. As examples, we have supported fish bycatch reduction, innovative and safer fishing vessel designs, catch rate efficiency and reduction in carbon footprint, reduction in ghost gear fishing, development of new products for export and development of brood stock for a cleaner fish in the aquaculture sector to eradicate seal lice and support development of new fisheries.
Fish and seafood are among Canada's most significant exports of food products today, valued at more than $7.5 billion of the sector's total value of $9 billion and driving economic development in coastal communities and all regions of our country. Our sector is the leading sector of the blue economy in Canada. For Canada to meet its potential, we need to spur adaptation to changes in world markets, tariff threats, technology, the requirements for sustainable harvesting and conservation methods, skill development, resource management and labour force demographics.
As in transitions in other industries, the potential for transformation lies in technology and information. Automation, robotic technology and AI are key to developing a more competitive, sustainable and integrated business model. However, other technologies can help gain a better understanding of resources, create stronger linkages between consumers and producers, maximize value, reorganize value chains and create the information and knowledge transfer to improve decision-making.
To meet these challenges and seize the opportunities, CCFI is pursuing the establishment of the Canadian fisheries and aquaculture industry network, CFAIN, under the strategic innovation fund with Industry, Science and Economic Development Canada. This network would facilitate industry transition through unprecedented collaboration among participants across the country in Canada's fish and seafood industry. The technology sector, academia, industry players, indigenous groups and research institutions will collectively accelerate change in the industry. The overarching goal will be for the industry to adopt business models that increase output value while reaching full utilization of resources through advanced processing, improved efficiency and sustainability in operations, through collaboration with industry players from across Canada.
Although Canada's seafood industry generates significant economic activity across all coastal regions and is a leading food export sector, it is diverse and fragmented with respect to species, industry structures, jurisdictional overlap and markets. Our industry often lacks a cohesive, collaborative approach to development and value creation. Nowhere is this more evident than in applied research and development. There are issues of scale and focus that lead to piecemeal investments that lack coherence, are diluted in scale and, not surprisingly, have not demonstrated the success of other North Atlantic jurisdictions, including much smaller competitors, such as Iceland and Norway. The need and opportunity for a strategic seafood innovation alliance has never been greater.
A recent consultants report sanctioned by CCFI reflects discussions with over 70 stakeholders from the wild harvest, fish processing companies, aquaculture, technology and gear manufacturers, research and academia from coast to coast to coast to garner feedback on the need and participation levels towards an innovation network.
The overwhelming support was recognized by those we consulted. The discussion was about the opportunity to instill a drive towards greater innovation, increase the adoption of different technologies, and improve productivity, sustainability and production practices with greater utilization of resources.
Certainly, there is a need for provincial and national collaboration, assisting domestic and international trade markets, and the need to attract funding and to bring ecosystem players together, facilitating collaboration, knowledge and innovation from coast to coast to coast. It's truly a nation-building effect with an ability to increase the value, anywhere from to 10% to 34%.
I want to thank the committee for the ability to share some thoughts with you. I certainly look forward to any questions as we move forward.
Thank you very much.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Hutchings.
With that, we'll go into the first round of questioning, starting with Mrs. Anstey for six minutes or less.
Conservative
Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses.
I serve a coastal area in Newfoundland and Labrador, where this industry is extremely important.
We heard quite heartbreaking testimony earlier, with respect to controlling agreements and corporate concentration, and we heard a real-life example of what that meant to a gentleman who was here in the hour before you.
I'd like to direct my question first to Mr. Fleck.
Since he has come and really wants to raise awareness around this issue, I think it's important that we give both witnesses an opportunity to add their perspectives.
His testimony revealed that the act might be sufficient, but enforcement is more the issue, mostly from upper-level management. I'm just wondering if this is something that you see. What is your perspective on the current act, whether it's an enforcement issue or something that needs to be changed?