Fisheries Committee on Nov. 20th, 2025

[Leigh Fox]

I think it affords the opportunity. If you think about a habitat bank, there are many different project types that you could establish and that you could hold as credits within the bank. There'd be a choice for the customer, the proponent. Is it always going to be right beside? Probably not. Is the restoration work's being right beside the project the best for fish habitat outcomes? Maybe yes, maybe no.

In engaging with first nations on what their priorities are and in looking at these larger opportunities, there's a way to ensure permanence. I know the DFO is concerned, if it's a permanent fish habitat impact, that you have a permanent fish habitat offset. That's a regulatory requirement that goes out into time. First nations are interested in stewarding lands and restoring lands in perpetuity, so there's a de-risking element to that and a regulatory efficiency that comes with these systems that can be a win for all of the stakeholders involved.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much.

With that, we're going to move on.

Mr. Deschênes, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning to all the witnesses. I thank them for joining us.

Mr. German, you were a Crown prosecutor for the federal government.

Mr. Chair, I would ask that you stop the clock while the interpreters get settled and Mr. German finds the right channel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Deschênes, we'll now restart the clock. The floor is yours.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. German, do you understand what I'm saying? Is the interpretation working properly?

[Peter German]

Yes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you for joining us, Mr. German.

In your testimony, you said that you were a Crown prosecutor.

Were you responsible for laying charges for violations of the Fisheries Act?

[Peter German]

Yes, I did, but that was many years ago, in Prince George, British Columbia.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

How long did you hold that position?

[Peter German]

Oh, that was back in the 1980s.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

At the time, did you receive instructions suggesting, in some cases, that you not pursue charges as Crown attorney?

[Peter German]

No, not that I can recall. I was in a private law firm, and we were federal agents, so we handled all federal statute prosecutions, fisheries being one of them. I don't recall at that time much in the way of direction to us.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

We've heard from a number of witnesses over the past few weeks. We're told that fisheries officers feel limited in their ability to intervene in the fight against illegal fishing. You touched on that issue.

Can you shed some light on that situation?

[Peter German]

Yes, that's a really good question. I can only dip back into my experience as a police officer.

For one, you have to feel supported by your own organization. For example, I handled some very high-profile corruption investigations, like Airbus and “Bingogate” in B.C. In those cases, I always felt that the people over me were supportive. They let me do my job; they didn't interfere. That's really important.

The second issue is that you have to believe that the criminal justice system is there for you. If you're putting in a lot of work and risking your own safety and so forth, because this is a tough job that the fisheries officers do, and then you find that the courts are really not paying attention to matters—because, oh, it's just fish, so why should they be concerned?—after a while, you ask yourself why you're doing this.

There could be multiple factors at play.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Do you agree with me that, in order to shed some light, fisheries officers should be able to testify freely about what is happening and how their work is done?

[Peter German]

I suppose it depends on what forum you're talking about.

As a police officer, I didn't feel I ever needed to speak publicly as a constable about how I didn't like how things were working. We were supported in terms of speaking at conferences and so forth. I guess it really depends on the context.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

We find ourselves in a situation whereby, on the one hand, fisheries officers say they feel political pressure and that this prevents them from acting, and on the other hand, officials come before the committee and tell us that, on the contrary, everything is fine. The situation we find ourselves in may prevent us from clearing things up.

Do you think that if fisheries officers were to come and explain what is actually happening, it would reveal that they are not being supported?

Don't you think that would help us put things right?

[Peter German]

Obviously, there's an issue in that case. One outlet might be their union. If they're unionized, which I believe they are, their union can express these concerns. That way, the individual officers don't have to feel that they're risking their own careers and so forth. That's the first outlet I would utilize.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

If I understand correctly, you are saying that organized crime has infiltrated the fishing industry, that the phenomenon is on the rise, and that when organized crime enters an industry, it eventually leads to corruption.

Is that correct?

[Peter German]

I did say that, yes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

What can we do to combat corruption?

[Peter German]

I don't think it's a secret that the west coast is quite different from the east coast in terms of the fishery in Canada.

On the east coast, you've had the more blatant violence. You've had the elver issues, the lobster issues and the organized criminal activity of one sort or another. I would refer to that as organized crime: It's three or more people doing illegal things, and they're making money doing it.

On the west coast, it's a bit more discreet, let's say, in that I'm more concerned about the money laundering, the licences, the quotas and transparency on the west coast.

The blatant corruption that's in your face is more likely to surface on the east coast, where you have interaction right there at the ground level. People are dealing with producers and harvesters and so forth.

Thinking of the crab issue on the west coast, it's same thing there. You could have what are believed to be legitimate processors bringing in crab that is illegally harvested on the side. We actually call it tailgating, if you're talking about a container. You've got 90% legal cargo and 10% illegal cargo. That's a form of corruption right there. The processors are being corrupted, because they're getting this crab cheap.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

You're not necessarily talking about corruption among public officials.

What should we be looking at to find out if there is corruption at Fisheries and Oceans Canada?

[Peter German]

It's not necessarily political officials at all. Corruption.... If you're a money launderer, wouldn't it be great to corrupt someone in a bank, like a bank teller? They can take care of all your deposits for you.

It's that type of thing. It's often people who...or it's someone who can control, who can give you driver's licence information and so forth, like the functionaries within government, so to speak, the bureaucrats, not necessarily high-level politicians or high-level officials. It really depends on the scenario.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.

That concludes the first round of questions.

We're going to start the second round with Mr. Small for five minutes.