Evidence of meeting #13 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was enforcement.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Morrissey.
Mr. Deschênes, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Lambertucci, I'd like to request some documents. I can send you the request in writing.
I would like you to provide the committee with the following information for each of the last five years: the number of reports received, the total number of investigations conducted, the number of investigations that led to one or more sanctions, the number of investigations that led to the termination of proceedings without sanctions, the number of offences listed by species, and summaries of the most recent interventions.
In addition, I would like to have the operational guidelines related to lobster fishing for food, social, or ceremonial purposes, as well as the operational targets for the last five years.
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I welcome those requests in writing. Much of that information can certainly be provided, and we will endeavour to return that to the committee as soon as possible.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Excellent. Thank you, Mr. Lambertucci.
I'd like to come back to my questions. You mentioned the enforcement continuum. As I understand it, when a fisheries officer arrives on the scene, he or she can do a number of different things.
Are you familiar with the directive that requires fisheries officers to hand out promotional materials, rather than a ticket, when they see someone committing an illegal act?
I am told that gifts are handed out. If someone has a female lobster carrying eggs, for example, they will be given a cap and even a waterproof bag.
Are you aware of this practice?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I am not aware of that practice.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
That directive was reportedly given to fisheries officers prior to the operation. When they approach an indigenous harvester who, while fishing for lobster for food, social or ritual purposes, is breaking the law, they are told to give them promotional items instead of enforcing the law.
We can check on that together, but that's how it was presented in the testimony.
Do you think that's a good way to enforce the law?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I don't want to hypothesize on what I'm not aware of, and I'm not prepared to render an opinion on that. It is something I will take away from your questioning and make inquiries about.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.
Next, we're going to move to Mr. Gunn for five minutes.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Lambertucci, this committee has heard from numerous witnesses that there have been widespread instances of illegal fishing and trafficking of fish happening in plain sight and in full knowledge of local DFO enforcement officers. We have heard of fishermen being intimidated by certain armed groups out of areas DFO has open to fishing.
Do senior DFO officials know who is responsible in many of these instances, and are they making a conscious decision in certain circumstances not to enforce the law or not to enforce the Fisheries Act?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Whenever officer safety is involved, as I stated earlier, we work with our Public Safety counterparts to ensure that is rooted out and addressed in the most efficient and immediate of circumstances.
I apologize for some other elements of your question in terms of the trafficking of the species and it happening in plain sight. We engage in surveillance on land, on sea and in the air, and through that intelligence support and information, this is where I talk about redeploying our resources on a priority basis to the most serious of those offences.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
There are no instances, to your knowledge, where political directives have been given to not enforce, in certain circumstances, certain aspects of the law or the Fisheries Act. Is that correct?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
As I stated earlier, we enjoy law enforcement independence in terms of how we implement our enforcement and judgment in these instances. That independence is free of political interference.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Does DFO make or has DFO ever made subjective decisions on whether or not to enforce the law or the Fisheries Act or to conduct an investigation based on the ethnicity of the offender?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Unauthorized is unauthorized. There are instances where we are preserving rights-based fishing, and there are instances in industry where, if it's unauthorized, we enforce it. Where is it? I guess in terms of the other element of your question, we don't render opinion on when to enforce and not enforce.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
We've been inundated with testimony, as many of the other members of this committee have already mentioned, from witnesses who have said that there are gross violations happening in plain sight. Local DFO officers know that it is happening, want to do something about it and have testified to many of us privately that they are basically being told that they cannot enforce the Fisheries Act, cannot enforce certain laws. In many of these instances, it is because of the ethnicity of the offender. Have you come across that?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
No, I have not.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
You've never come across that or heard about that happening?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Decisions on when we enforce and don't enforce or investigate and don't investigate are based on capacity and our ability to respond based on that capacity. We don't make that decision based on ethnicity. That is immaterial to how we approach an investigation or enforcement.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Would you be interested in hearing testimony from frontline DFO officers, if that contradicted what you just said—if something is happening on the front lines that's not making its way back up to you?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
As I stated earlier, if the committee is inviting fishery officers to present for various in camera sessions, that testimony would be welcome.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Mr. Burns, or whoever is best suited to answer this question, in my riding there are thousands of people who derive their livelihood from the aquaculture industry. This is an industry that this government—throughout this department—has promised to transition out, in contradiction to their own science conducted by DFO. This was a plan that was promised years ago. Nothing has been presented to the industry.
I'm not as concerned about the individual companies, but what would you say to the thousands of people who, both directly and indirectly, derive their livelihood from it, whose lives have been put into turmoil? They don't know what this transition plan is. They haven't heard anything from this government. They've had to put off buying homes. They've had to put off making key life decisions. They don't know where they might be living in a couple of years. Where is this transition plan, and what is it going to include? What would you say to all of these people and young families whose lives have been compounded by this uncertainty?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Harbour Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I'll pass it to Kate Ladell.
Kate Ladell Director General, Ecosystems Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I understand there has been quite a lot of interaction on the transition plan. The interdepartmental task force, which is led by ISED, convened over 120 meetings and round tables and received written submissions to inform the Government of Canada on options for potential measures to support the transition. We are currently reviewing all of the different perspectives and considering how we can best move sustainable aquaculture forward in British Columbia.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Gunn.
Next, we're going to go to Mr. Klassen for five minutes.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Thank you very much to all of the witnesses appearing here.
Mr. Burns, and possibly Mr. Lambertucci as well, given that the Coast Guard is no longer working within this industry, what kind of an impact do you see that having on enforcement in the waters?