Evidence of meeting #16 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commercial.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Vacher, I would like to come back to when you are at sea interacting with poachers. I would like to know how that goes. Have you ever intervened? If so, how did they react?
Commercial Fisherman, As an Individual
Yes, I have often intervened. I talk to them first to try to get them to co-operate. So, rather than starting by reporting them, I start by talking to them and finding out what they are doing.
Their attitude they adopt is very clear. They basically tell us to leave them alone: It's their territory and they can do what they want. They also add that, if we ever start playing hardball, they'll simply break our fishing gear or cut our buoys. These are threats. You can imagine that a fisherman like me does not want to have his fishing gear, which costs between $50,000 and $60,000, destroyed. So, it's clear that our initial approach is to ignore them, and then we intervene when we realize that it's hurting our lobster sales. These people can sell their lobster much cheaper than I can, they do not have to declare anything to the tax authorities, they do not have to comply with anything. So, it's a big difference, not to mention the negative impact on resource management, given that the fishing data is not being recorded by Fisheries and Oceans Canada. Perhaps one day, this will have an extremely negative impact on the resource.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
To summarize, you go out to sea, you fish legally, you comply with your licence conditions. You see poachers, you go to the band council, which confirms that they're not allowed to fish, and you try to talk to the poachers, who threaten you. Then you call the fisheries officers and ask if they can do anything, but they do nothing.
You continue to fish; you're an honest fisher living in a certain climate. Actually, how do you cope with that? Do you have concerns for your safety when you're at sea?
Commercial Fisherman, As an Individual
No, I'm not afraid for my safety. However, to avoid conflicts with fishers, I end up abandoning the areas where they're present. So it's as if my fishing area is becoming smaller and smaller because I'm giving them space. I try not to disturb them, because I don't want to be negatively impacted in terms of my fishing rig.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Right now, poachers are winning at every level.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.
Next, we're going to Mr. Gunn for five minutes.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, Chair.
I have questions for Mr. Buote.
Before being elected as a member of Parliament and serving on this committee, I was a documentary filmmaker. I interviewed an individual one day about the drug crisis in Canada. We had stopped recording, but he had a line that stuck with me. We were talking about open-air drug use. He said, “You get what you tolerate as a society.” I thought that was a really interesting line that stuck with me.
I want to ask you if you believe DFO is tolerating illegal fishing by certain groups or individuals in our society today.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Do you believe that is a result of a conscious decision being made at DFO to not enforce the law in certain situations or for certain offenders, based on their ethnicity? If so, could you describe those situations that you've witnessed, and why you believe DFO is fully aware of what is happening?
Fisherman, As an Individual
Well, I haven't witnessed it myself—I'm from P.E.I.—but, from what I'm told, it's happening a lot in New Brunswick that certain ethnicities are not getting fined and charged for breaking the law.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Do you believe this has created an increase in the amount of resentment between indigenous and non-indigenous fishermen and communities?
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Do you think that the lack of monitoring or the two-tiered enforcement of the Fisheries Act limits our ability to conserve this important resource and maintain the sustainability of the fishery?
Conservative
Fisherman, As an Individual
The FSC fishery is supposed to be monitored...or it's supposed to be a quota. I don't know what that quota is. Nobody knows what that quota is, but it's not regulated. Nobody knows how much lobster is being caught in LFA 25 and other areas. I don't know. If it were monitored, they would stop the fishing at a certain time—do you know what I mean?—when this quota they supposedly have is caught.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you very much.
Mr. Hébert, you were talking about the snow crab, the illegal landings that you were concerned about. Can you expand on what you're most concerned about—the illegal landings—and whether you believe that, if this continues to go unenforced or unmonitored, it could undermine the ability to conserve this important resource and maintain its sustainability going forward?
Director general, Association des crabiers acadiens
That's for sure, and it depends on the size of the illegal landings. At some point, the impact becomes really significant. In 1989, landings collapsed to the tune of 7,000 tonnes, 6,950 tonnes. Prior to 1990, it was a competitive fishery that led to overfishing, which is why landings are at the lowest level ever seen in the history of this fishery. At the time, we didn't know the consequences.
Starting in 1990, fishers agreed to pay observers at sea. At the time, they had 30% coverage. They also decided to pay for dockside weighing of all landings. Fishers put a lot of effort into it and paid for a trawl survey not only to estimate the positive commercial biomass, but also to see the dynamics of the crab population. So we were able to observe in the 1990s that, even though landings were low, there were a lot of prerecruits, and that increased the population again. With a much lower catch rate, we were able to cyclically maintain the snow crab biomass and the current quotas.
However, in the case of illegal landings, it is difficult to determine whether there is a major impact on the population. That then needs to be looked at in terms of reproduction and mature females. Currently, we are seeing a decrease in the average size of mature females, so a decrease in the total fertility of the population. We don't yet know the effects on the genetics of the stock, and it could take several years before they arise.
However, I'd like to say that any factor that contributes to reducing the reproductive potential of the stock then has an impact for 10 to 12 years afterwards, from the moment they start reproducing. For example, a small 3 mm crab of takes about nine to 10 years to be market-ready. When there's a lot of illegal commercial crab fishing going on, especially with the larger spawners, it really impacts their ability to reproduce. It gives the smaller males an opportunity to reproduce, which then involves the genetics of the stock.
Although our approach is a precautionary one and we have biological reference points enabling the population to always be in the healthy zone, if we still continue to make illegal landings instead of staying in the healthy zone, we'll return to the cautious zone and then to the critical zone. You don't want the stock embroiled in that cycle.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Gunn.
I now give the floor to Mr. Cormier for five minutes.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Mr. Vacher, I'll briefly go back to you.
You talked about illegal fishing in some indigenous communities. I'm pleased to tell you that I have an article here about my region, which says that the chief of the Pabineau first nation is totally opposed to this. His community fishes during the same season as commercial fishers in our region. We've always collaborated well with that community.
Let's also keep things in perspective. I understand the situation with regard to illegal fishing among indigenous people. In the commercial lobster fishery, there are no landings and there is no weighing or dockside monitoring. That's no secret. Without referring to them as illegal landings, have you seen unreported landings? Is that something you've seen during the span of your career?
Commercial Fisherman, As an Individual
That's very clear. We mustn't compare lobster fishing with crab fishing, because they're two different ways of managing the resource. It doesn't matter how much is landed, it's not important in lobster fishing, because what counts is the number of traps and licences, as well as the length of the fishing season. That's how this fishery is managed. In fact, it's the best-managed fishery in Canada. Take the Îles de la Madeleine, for example. This region has been collecting data on the fishery since 1875—
Liberal
Commercial Fisherman, As an Individual
I'm talking about the lobster fishery. I'm telling you that you shouldn't think the situation is serious, because landings aren't counted. It's not a problem at all.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Okay.
However, if we don't keep data on a given resource every year, how do you expect us to have good data on that resource to know whether it's healthy or less healthy? How can we get an idea of how the lobster stock is doing, for example, if there is no landing or dockside weighing?