Evidence of meeting #16 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was commercial.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commercial Fisherman, As an Individual
Accounting is done differently. Most harvesters—let's say 99% of harvesters—sell to plants. Plants are required to produce a purchase slip, which they are required to send to—
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Mr. Vacher, you're talking to a son of a fisherman here. Certainly, my father didn't have the good years of lobster fishing, but I think everyone knows that some catches are unreported in the lobster fishery.
Unfortunately, I think that not having good data on how the lobster fishery resource is doing is a factor that must be considered. That's my opinion, and it may be different from yours. However, I think we need to have an effectively managed fishery in order to have good scientific data, both on the indigenous side and on the commercial side. Both sides are talking about managing the resource with a sustainable fishery. However, how do you want us to have a sustainable fishery for years to come, for generations to come, if we don't have any data?
I understand your point of view, but now I'll ask my other questions.
Mr. Noël, you own a crab fishing licence. In the new Fisheries Act in 2017, it says that the owner-operator must be on the vessel. That was a long-standing request from associations and fishers, precisely because they wanted to avoid questionable funding agreements with plants, and so on. It was to avoid the takeover of a company like the one you worked very hard for, you and all the others who hold licences. That still creates problems, because, as you know, licences are very expensive. We're talking about millions of dollars, whether for the lobster fishery or the crab fishery.
Do you think mechanisms should be put in place in the act, or even on the financial side, to ensure that licences are kept in our regions? We know that permits are going to other regions because of questionable regulations. Given the price of these licences, would you agree to propose solutions to the government so that a group, family members, nephews, nieces, deckhands, whatever, can hold these licences? Would you be prepared to make a proposal to further facilitate access to these licences and keep them in our communities, instead of them being bought up by companies under agreements that are sometimes questionable?
President, Association des crabiers acadiens
Absolutely. As I was saying, many of our businesses have been moving elsewhere in other provinces for quite some time. Our coastal communities depend heavily on it. If we let the situation continue, certain regions will definitely be affected.
We always think of a family business, which should be created or established according to some really structured rules, where you wouldn't be able to exercise control over the fisheries. There have to be structured rules, where families would be directly established in the business.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
We agree that it is quite difficult for a young person to get $5 million to make a down payment on a licence that costs $15 million or $20 million.
President, Association des crabiers acadiens
Absolutely. You don't have to go to $15 million. I know several fishermen whose licences were transferred from father to son at a much lower cost. Nowadays, at the end of the year, there's no profit, and the cost is minimal, so if you want to sell a licence to someone else fairly quickly, it's impossible. There's no financing available.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Cormier.
That finishes our second round. We're going to have a short third round of questioning. We'll have three minutes for the Conservatives and Liberals, and then two minutes for the Bloc.
Mr. Small, you have the floor for three minutes.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you Mr. Chair.
Mr. Buote, your member of Parliament, Mr. Morrissey, has had some trouble believing that controlling agreements exist. Who are the big players out in the Tignish area in terms of processors? Can you name some of them?
Fisherman, As an Individual
Royal Star is one of them. Tignish Fisheries Co-op—
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Do you know of any fish harvesters who would have borrowed money from some of the processors out in that part of Prince Edward Island?
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
It doesn't happen in the lobster fishery in that part of Prince Edward Island?
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Okay. I was just wondering whether you've heard talk of any controlling agreements that any of your buddies might have been involved in out there.
Fisherman, As an Individual
Years ago, yes, but there haven't been any controlling agreements around here, that I am aware of, over the last seven or eight years—maybe more.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Have you heard talk of any controlling agreements anywhere throughout P.E.I.'s LFAs?
Fisherman, As an Individual
No, not anymore. I really don't know of any anymore in this area.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Wow, that's amazing. Thank you.
Monsieur Hébert, we've heard some alarming testimony around this committee over the last few weeks regarding the lack of enforcement based on ethnicity. If that's not checked rapidly in the coming months or years, what's going to be the effect on the public resource, the fishery in Atlantic Canada and Quebec?
Director general, Association des crabiers acadiens
In the snow crab fishery in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, all landings are weighed dockside. Indigenous people go to the main docks, either the Lamèque or Shippagan docks or the other main docks, where all landings are weighed. I don't think there's a major problem with illegal landings by indigenous people.
The ability to weigh all landings dockside really has an impact on the illegal landings that are currently taking place. If dockside weighing is introduced for inshore lobster fishers, there will be a significant reduction in illegal landings and activities in this fishery. As for snow crab, landings are done at specific docks, which are very well organized to weigh all landings. Illegal landings are few compared to what we see in the lobster fishery.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Small.
Mr. Cormier, you have the floor for three minutes.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Mr. Vacher, I'll come back to you because I think we may have misunderstood each other. I just want to make sure that we understand each other. I was talking about the lobster fishery earlier. We'll set aside fishing for food, social and ceremonial purposes by indigenous people. I'm talking about the commercial lobster fishery. There is no dockside weighing, so we don't have clear data.
Commercial Fisherman, As an Individual
That's not true: The data is very clear. The Fisheries Act requires us to report. All commercial fishers are required to report their catches. We are also subject to audits. That's not the issue.
If you target that and think it's a problem, you're going to turn that fishery into a crab fishery with quotas. That's not the solution. I repeat: This is absolutely not the solution. The solution is to work with those who don't report, those who are fishing illegally. Those who make their declarations are fishing legally. Failure to report catches is illegal.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Mr. Vacher, I'm going to come back to this.
A catch is not illegal as long as it isn't reported on the tax return at the end of the year.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
We agree that, without landing at the dock and weighing, there is no clear data.
A Radio-Canada report clearly indicated that there are either illegal landings and unreported catches not only in indigenous fisheries, but also in commercial ones. How can we obtain conclusive data, even good data, to determine the status of the lobster resource? How can we do that if we don't have the real data at our disposal?
Commercial Fisherman, As an Individual
It's the same thing with crab fishing. I used to be a fisheries protection officer and worked with commercial crab fishers who were making illegal landings. It's easy to make an illegal landing.
As I said, it's important not to confuse things. Lobster fishers, like crab fishers, are required to report their catches. Crab fishers are required to have an observer on shore to keep track of the catch, because there's a quota to meet. However, lobster fishing is managed by participants, so it doesn't change anything—