Fisheries Committee on March 25th, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Good afternoon, colleagues.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 29 of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

I want to start by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people and by expressing gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on land they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108, the committee is meeting to commence its study of recreational and traditional fishing for softshell clam. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members may attend in person or remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would like to ask all in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the cards on the table in front of you. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, but particularly the interpreters.

Pursuant to our motion, I can advise the committee that all witnesses appearing today have done the required testing.

To ensure the meeting goes smoothly, I'd like to provide some guidelines to the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike and please mute yourself when you're not speaking.

For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

A reminder that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. With us today, we have Dorina Allard, fisherwoman; Gaston Bourdages, fisherman; and by video conference, Ghislain Roberge, fisherman. We will start with opening statements of up to five minutes each.

Ms. Allard, you have the floor.

[Dorina Allard, Fisherwoman, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak before you about the importance of opening new shellfish clam fishing areas in Chaleur Bay.

I am speaking to you today first as a 65-year-old woman, but above all as a daughter, sister and mother from a long line of clam harvesters from Chaleur Bay. I began harvesting clams when I was very young, alongside my father, my brothers and my sisters, in the Saint-Omer region, a clam harvesting zone that is currently closed. For us, clam harvesting was more than an activity—it was a family ritual. It was a lesson in patience, respect for the sea, and above all, a way to understand that natural resources are borrowed from future generations.

Now, more than 60 years later, I harvest clams with my children, my sisters, my brothers, my nieces and nephews and their children, as well as with friends. However, this time, one thing has changed: Miguasha is not what it used to be. There are far too many people, too much harvesting on an area that is too small and with limited access to the sea. When an ecosystem begins to show signs of strain, it puts our traditions, our culture and our future in jeopardy. Harvesters from Saint-Omer, like me, who have access to the sea, can reach the authorized harvesting site in Miguasha from their own shore. However, they need to walk roughly two kilometres round-trip carrying the required equipment and their catch, carefully crossing the current of the Nouvelle River estuary, depending on the current and rising tides. Miguasha is located only a few kilometres from New Brunswick, where the neighbouring shores support clam harvesting.

I'm not speaking only as someone who is deeply attached to this place. I'm also speaking as a witness to the changes that have been accumulating year after year. We all want to continue to benefit from this resource, but to do so, we need to act intelligently and prudently. This is why I fully support—and ask for you to support—the opening of new clam harvesting areas in Chaleur Bay.

Opening new areas doesn't mean opening the door to abuse. On the contrary, it's a protective measure. It would alleviate pressure on the Miguasha shoal, which can no longer sustain all the demand on its own. It would also better spread out harvesters to avoid overfishing in any one location. It would also preserve the ecological balance of the bay so that the resource remains healthy and abundant, and ensure that our traditions endure without jeopardizing future generations.

I don't want to change our ways; I want to give them a chance to survive. I hope that every child can, as I once did, feel the simple joy of discovering a clam beneath their fingers, filling a small bucket, and then sharing a meal that tastes of the sea and pride.

However, for this tradition to continue, we need to be responsible, and responsibility today requires a collective decision: to diversify our fishing areas to protect those that already exist.

Chaleur Bay is vast. The resource is there. We simply need to manage it wisely, by opening new areas, respecting natural cycles and working together to ensure that clam harvesting remains an ecological, cultural and family treasure.

Thank you for your attention, and especially for your concern for the future of our bay, our francophone, anglophone and indigenous communities, and our traditions.

Together, we can ensure that clam harvesting remains vibrant, sustainable and accessible for all generations to come.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Allard.

We will now hear from Mr. Bourdages for five minutes or less.

[Gaston Bourdages, Fishermen, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

Please raise your hand if you've ever gone softshell clam harvesting. I see that only two people out of about 20 have. I brought you a real specimen of a softshell clam that was caught on Sunday morning. I can pass it around so you can see what it looks like. The softshell clam is a mollusc with a pallial sinus protected by a flattened bivalve shell that is very delicate. They can be found burrowed in mudflats at depths of up to 90 centimetres. They are harvested with shovels or rakes. Some people use siphons. This species lives in the sandy sediments of tidal coastlines from the southern United States to Canada and along certain European coastlines, including the Wadden Sea.

The Répertoire du patrimoine culturel du Québec provided a summary: Some 350 clam harvesting areas were listed in 2016 and softshell clam fishing was open at only 87 sites. In the area that my neighbour and I are talking about in Chaleur Bay, we have 48 potential harvesting areas, and 41 of them are closed. That means that softshell clam harvesting is only allowed in seven areas. A La Presse article entitled “Des coques qui ont la cote” compared softshell clams to maple syrup, blueberries and cranberries as regional delicacies. If you ban caribou hunting for indigenous peoples in the Far North or harvesting blueberries and cranberries in Lac-Saint-Jean, there will be an uproar. However, when it comes to softshell clam fishing, there's been no uproar so far.

Let's now turn to water treatment. There were no restrictions on softshell clam harvesting over 35 years ago and all areas were accessible, even though some cities and municipalities didn't have waste water treatment then. I don't get it now, because they all have waste water treatment systems, and yet 41 of the 48 fishing areas are closed. I used to be an engineer and was involved in at least 80% of the water treatment south of the Gaspésie. My map shows Chaleur Bay in blue, and New Brunswick. All municipalities, with the exception of Caplan, have had sewer systems put in.

Magazine Gaspésie had a three-page article entitled “Effervescence printanière” and I'll read an excerpt from what one of my neighbours André Babin wrote in the magazine:

We fish softshell clams—we call them clams in French too—in early April on Easter weekend. My family lives at the tip of Les Pirates in Bonaventure. Once the ice has melted on the mudflats, my father, my brothers and I go out with a small sled, buckets and shovels and cross the barachois, which is still covered in ice. We bring along wicker baskets, which we call potato baskets here, that are made by the Mi’gmaq people of Gesgapegiag. The baskets are very practical because the water can drain out.

So it's a family tradition, and it's still going strong.

Now, let's talk about commercial fishing. One of my colleagues was the provincial minister of regional development. He did a study to develop a project that would build a factory capable of harvesting 150 tonnes of softshell clams and create 110 jobs with an investment of $4 million. That was in 2004 and 2005, and unfortunately, he wasn't re‑elected and the project got shelved.

I had noted the techniques of CIRADD, the Centre for Research Initiation and Sustainable Development Assistance, which will be giving a presentation.

The Comité ZIP de la baie des Chaleurs, which conducts various environmental assessments, did a study in 2007, 2008 and 2009. In 2007, the Bonaventure area had 120 harvesters who caught 168,000 softshell clams, compared to 112,000 in 2008 and 69,000 in 2009. The study's purpose was to verify the feasibility of opening the fishing area.

A document was drafted, and its conclusion stated that the area could open for softshell clam harvesting, with a committee overseen by Fisheries and Oceans Canada; however, the department never formed this committee. It's now 2026 and we could have been harvesting shellfish clams in this area since 2012 had this document been followed.

Now, the comparison to the Côte‑Nord—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Your time is almost up, Mr. Bourdages. You have 30 seconds. If you could wrap up your statement, that would be great.

[Gaston Bourdages]

Okay.

On the Côte‑Nord in Mingan, my colleague Guy Vigneault, who sits on an Association of Canadian Port Authorities committee, received a letter dated March 15 of this year informing him that, following the study on the Mingan shellfish zone, this area will be reopened. They wanted to share this good news.

In my experience, softshell clam fishing is an integral part of living on the coast for someone from the Gaspésie. Every Gaspesian has done it at least once in their life. My experience started at a very young age when I was 10 years old, with my father, cousins and uncles. We used to harvest softshell clams for Easter Sunday. Everyone in that area wanted softshell clams for Easter. Conversations in the village revolved around this question: “Do you have any clams?” and people would share their catch. Year after year, the ritual of clan fishing was repeated and the whole ceremony around clam harvesting would be repeated. Such great memories. We were dressed funny, it was cold, our feet were frozen. The first one to catch a clam would shout, “I've got a clam!” and everyone would go dig next to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bourdages. We have to move on.

We'll now turn to Mr. Roberge for five minutes or less.

[Ghislain Roberge, Fishermen, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to testify before the committee about the importance of opening new clam fishing zones in Chaleur Bay.

I'm going to speak to you plainly, just as I am. I’ve been walking through the flats of Chaleur Bay for as long as I can remember. I grew up right by the sea, with a view overlooking the clam-digging flats. I started digging clams with my dad when I was barely five years old. I remember him showing me how to do it properly, with respect for the sea and for nature. I've harvested clams all my life. Where I come from, clam digging is a family affair; it’s about traditions and memories. It's part of who we are, part of our Gaspé, part of our sea.

Later, it was my turn to do the same with my daughter, and then with my grandson Raphaël. I made him a little clam rake, and I watched him make his first tracks in the mud, so proud to be doing it on his own. In that moment, I saw myself again—a little boy, with my father right beside me—and I understood how important it is to keep this alive, to make sure this tradition doesn’t die out.

The reason I'm taking the time to speak with you today is because I would like to see new clam fishing zones opened in the bay. It's not about depleting resources or doing things haphazardly. It's about spreading out the pressure, giving the overfished areas a chance to breathe, and making sure that those who come after us can still enjoy the sea the way we did.

We know the bay; it runs through our veins. We can tell when it's doing well and when it's struggling. There are places that are ready to start producing again, and others that need a break. All I'm asking is that this be done intelligently—with people who know the sea, with scientists if needed, and with people who understand good old Gaspé common sense.

My fishing days are behind me now; I've had my share of good times. I’m doing this for Raphaël, and for all the others who dream of watching the tides to find the right moment to wade into the mud, a bucket in hand, breathing the salty air. I want this tradition to carry on. I want our people to keep experiencing it.

Opening new areas means breathing new life into an activity that's part of who we are.

Thank you for your time, and thank you for thinking about the future of our bay, our people and our young ones.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much.

With that, we'll begin our first round of questions.

Mr. Small, you have six minutes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Monsieur Bourdages, you talked about the lack of restrictions on clam harvesting 35 years ago, when the protection of our marine ecosystems and coastal areas was nowhere compared to what it is today. Do you think the local coastal ecosystem is cleaner and that it should be less of an obstacle to opening areas for clam harvesting than it was 35 years ago due to the protection of the environment and waste management and whatnot?

[Gaston Bourdages]

Thank you for the question. The issue you raise is a very specific one. Science can answer that, but here's my understanding of it.

There were no waste water treatment plants 35 years ago, and waste water went straight into the ocean. Right now, along the entire coastline of Chaleur Bay, across 12 municipalities, including Carleton‑sur‑Mer, Saint‑Omer, Nouvelle, Maria, Bonaventure, New Richmond, New Carlisle and Paspébiac, only one doesn't have a treatment facility.

All the others have treatment facilities that process human effluent. People say we're polluted, but we've been cleaning up the system for 35 years. The problem is, when it comes time to test the water, the funding from Fisheries and Oceans Canada isn't there. That's the problem. We need to take samples and analyze them to see if things are in order or not.

In fact, the Comité ZIP did that in 2007, 2008 and 2009. The recommendation was to set up a working committee to oversee the opening of the shellfish zone, but that never happened.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Again, Mr. Bourdages, there's a four-step process in place in the Maritimes and a five-step process in place in Quebec which areas have to pass through for new areas to be opened or even for areas that are open to stay open. Is that correct?

[Gaston Bourdages]

Yes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Not only is that a multistep process, it has to be coordinated across three or four different government departments, depending on which province it's in. How would you rate the efficiency of this process when you have three and four different government departments that have to coordinate?

It's been said that government departments don't like to deal with each other and they don't co-operate very well. Do you think that's an impediment to opportunities for harvesting clams?

[Gaston Bourdages]

Sir, if you take a taxi and there are four steering wheels and four drivers, you won't get very far. I think there could be a single committee accredited to monitor the progress of the softshell clam fishery study.

This is being held up because there are too many tiers of government. In my area, we could have been harvesting softshell clams for the past 12 years; the Comité ZIP proved it. However, the committee hasn't been formed.

What are we going to do about this? Are we going to wait another 25 years because no one wants to lift a finger to conduct studies?

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Thank you.

Monsieur Roberge, number one, how would you rate the health of the biomass of soft-shell clams? Number two, in your opinion, is the stock being overharvested?

[Ghislain Roberge]

No.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Okay.

How would you rate the overall health, not in specific individual areas, but in general? How would you rate the health of the biomass of the clam, the plentifulness? Are there a lot of clams?

[Ghislain Roberge]

Yes, there are a lot of clams and they are all healthy.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

What's the problem? What would you like to see done as a result of this study here?

[Ghislain Roberge]

We would like softshell clam fishing to be reopened so that we can harvest them. Clams are delicious, that's been proven. I've been eating clams for 50 years and not once have I fallen ill.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

How come the former minister of fisheries, who was the member for your riding, could not get these problems straightened out over the 10 years that she was representing your region?

[Ghislain Roberge]

People didn't want to test the water. They didn't want to deal with it.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much. I'm sorry, but your time is up.

Thank you very much, Mr. Small.

Next, we're going to go to Mr. Klassen for six minutes.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you very much.

It's been interesting hearing about the traditions of your communities. We obviously all want to ensure that these traditions carry on for future generations.

As you alluded to, Ms. Allard, you want to make sure that your children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren continue on in this area. You talked a little bit about what this has meant to you in your raising of your family and so on. Can you talk a little bit more about the soft-shell clam harvesting and what it means to you and your community?

[Dorina Allard]

It was obvious. The clams were in our yard, and it was quite natural to harvest them, because for one, they're delicious, accessible and free. They are a good food source for people living on both sides of Chaleur Bay. I'm right at the end of Chaleur Bay, near Campbellton.

I've always fished, and continue to fish, in Saint‑Omer. I go to the authorized area, but I have to walk a long way carrying all my gear. I love walking in the water, so that's not really a problem. However, it would be nice if the area could be expanded because Nouvelle River goes through Miguasha and that could be dangerous for people who aren't familiar with it. There's no problem at low tide, but if you stay out a little too long, sometimes you have to hurry back.

Going there was the most natural thing to do with my family. Later on, I started going with my children, and we've kept it up ever since. It's not just with my descendants. I still go fishing. April is coming up and it's the right time for it. As another witness said, we eat softshell clams at Easter, and a lot of people dig them up. However, access to the water is very limited. There are too many cars on the roadside and all the people from Miguasha go through private land because no one lives there. However, it would be great to have more access and to carry on these traditions that have been there since time immemorial among the Mi'kmaq communities, who are quite near our community.

I live in Maria. There's one community in Gesgapegiag and another in Listuguj, and both are close to Chaleur Bay. The Restigouche River flows into Chaleur Bay. These are ancestral practices and I hope they will go on. I've also never heard anything about poisoning or anything of the sort, and so we have some questions about that.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'm also wondering about the inventory or the stock of the clams over time. How would you rate that right now? Are there fewer clams than there were years ago?

Mr. Bourdages, I think you wanted to answer that one. I'll throw that one at you.

[Gaston Bourdages]

There are 41 of 48 zones closed, and there's no fishing there. What are the clams doing? Well, they're growing bigger. They're not being harvested.

Back when the Société de développement de l'industrie maricole committee was chaired by Marcel Landry, the former assistant deputy minister for the regions, there was an opportunity to harvest 150 tonnes of softshell clams per year, but unfortunately, Mr. Landry did not see this harvesting project through to completion. It was a commercial harvest for which we wanted to open a decontamination plant for certain clams that didn't meet standards.

Where I come from, when we talk about “walking on the flats”, we mean the spot where there's no more water and there's sand. You can see the holes the clams make to breathe, and you're constantly stepping in those holes. That means there's a lot of clams there. You've got to experience that at least once in your life. By the way, I'd like to invite you all to tour this area to see what it's really like and go clam digging. I think we wouldn't be here having this conversation because we'd all be out there digging up clams.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

You said that 41 zones out of 48 zones are closed. Do you think that all 41 zones could be reopened?

[Gaston Bourdages]

With studies and analyses that meet government standards, I'm sure that we could reopen over 75% of these areas. The proof is that in the case of the Bonaventure area, which is closed, the Comité ZIP proved in 2009 that it could be reopened sector by sector. That was not done, and it's been over 20 years now.

We could have been harvesting clams in that area since 2010, as the Comité ZIP recommended. The clams are still there. The water changes twice a day with the tide. It rises and falls twice a day. So, pollution…. When we take a bath, we change the water right away. In this case, the water is changed twice a day. Softshell clams filter pure water every day.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bourdages.

Mr. Deschênes, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First, I'd like to thank my colleagues for agreeing to discuss this issue, which is extremely important to my constituents back home in Chaleur Bay.

I'd like to thank Mr. Bourdages, Ms. Allard and Mr. Roberge for joining us. I'm very pleased to hear the Chaleur Bay accent here in Ottawa. I feel less alone.

I'm delighted that we can discuss the issue of softshell clam harvesting, which is very important, because I hear about it almost on a monthly basis.

I'd like us to start the discussion with the issue that arose in 1990, when a moratorium was declared. That's when the federal government closed all softshell clam harvesting sites in the Gaspésie and then reopened some of them later. I'll go around the table first to hear your thoughts.

Do you remember how things were before then? How many sites were open in Chaleur Bay before the 1990s?

We can start with Ms. Allard or Mr. Bourdages.

[Dorina Allard]

I've never heard of any restrictions on softshell clam harvesting, whether regarding quantity or size. There used to be an abundance of clams. I was quite young, but I remember there used to be a softshell clam cannery called Roussel in Saint‑Omer, in Robitaille. All the municipalities have now been merged.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

That means that back then, you could harvest clams anywhere, including in Maria, Carleton and Saint‑Omer.

[Dorina Allard]

I didn't have to go to Carleton because there were clams in my backyard. I never heard of any restrictions. People, including my brothers, used to sell their softshell clams to the canning plant for a few pennies. As a young girl, I'd put a “softshell clams for sale” sign up on the roadside and make a tidy four bucks. Softshell clams cost a little more these days, but I prefer to give them away rather than sell them.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

What about you, Mr. Bourdages?

[Gaston Bourdages]

There were no restrictions. We'd go behind our house, because the Chaleur Bay shoreline across from northern New Brunswick was open to the community for softshell clam harvesting. It was part of our heritage. Softshell clam harvesting is the same thing as going on a partridge hunt.

The best thing about the Gaspésie is that each season is unique. Spring is softshell clam harvesting season, fall is hunting season and summer is fishing season. Softshell clam harvesting is an ancestral indigenous tradition handed down by our grandfathers and great-grandfathers. They taught us how to harvest softshell clams. However, as you mentioned, the federal government declared a moratorium and shut everything down. We had to fight to open some small sites. However, none of the municipalities had waste water treatment plants.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

I have a question for you, Mr. Roberge. Do you remember the good old days in Bonaventure when that site was open? Can you describe how popular that was?

[Ghislain Roberge]

Oh my goodness! People were all over the place, everywhere you looked. There was a lot of softshell clam harvesting. No one ever got sick. Dr. Jean‑Marie Pitre had a practice in Bonaventure for 50 years and no one went to see him for a clam-related illness. It's a tradition for all of us on the Gaspésie.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

How many people would there be on the beach at Bonaventure when softshell clam harvesting was allowed, to the best of your recollection?

[Ghislain Roberge]

There were around 200 to 300 people.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

What happened in 1990 when the moratorium was declared and harvesting was banned? How did that affect people on the Gaspésie and Chaleur Bay?

[Ghislain Roberge]

People would go anyway and they'd get caught.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Did that ever happen to you?

[Ghislain Roberge]

Yes, I was chased down by helicopter.

Now we can't go there anymore. It's no longer allowed.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

How many times were you caught in the years after the moratorium?

[Ghislain Roberge]

Six or seven times.

[Ghislain Roberge]

I had to pay some hefty fines. It cost me $250 per clam.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Why did you go on harvesting softshell clams even though you were getting fined?

[Ghislain Roberge]

I loved softshell clam harvesting. It was a horrible situation. I couldn't help myself. I was ready to go to prison if I could keep harvesting.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Roberge.

Mr. Bourdages, I have a question using Saint‑Siméon as an example.

The moratorium was declared and after that, a broad grassroots movement was set in motion to press for some sites to be reopened. That's how a few sites were reopened, including the sites in Miguasha, which is open from time to time, Saint‑Omer and Port‑Daniel. There's been public pressure all these years. People have wanted access to softshell clam harvesting areas, and there are plenty of places where that could happen.

You spoke about Saint‑Siméon. Based on your information, can you describe what happened and why new sites could not be opened despite the mobilization, the report that was produced and the work done by the Comité ZIP?

[Gaston Bourdages]

I can quote the findings of this report for you. In 2007, the Comité ZIP selected 120 fishers to harvest softshell clams, and they harvested 168,000. Some 80 harvesters were selected in 2008 and 60 in 2009. Harvesting took place in an area Fisheries and Oceans Canada described as contaminated, which had been closed. The harvesters were authorized to fish there. The findings showed that the area could be opened. That was west of Bonaventure, between Saint‑Siméon and Bonaventure.

That's the protected area where my friend Ghislain Roberge loves to harvest.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

I don't have a lot of time left, Mr. Bourdages.

From what you're saying, the issue was not that the softshell clams were contaminated.

[Gaston Bourdages]

No. Humans can't move this forward.

The report I alluded to states that to have ongoing community shellfish management in Bonaventure—Saint‑Siméon and to ensure the current management plan is implemented, the committee promoting shellfish harvesting should create a joint functional and structural administrative framework with Fisheries and Oceans Canada. That hasn't been done. This means that we've lost the right to harvest softshell clams in this area alone for 10 years or more. Imagine then that another 40 areas out of the 48 could be analyzed and opened to fishing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.

That brings us to the end of our first round. We'll now go to the second round.

Mr. Généreux, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm new to this committee. Thank you to my colleagues for inviting me today.

I'm from La Pocatière, which is on the shores of the St. Lawrence River. Where I come from, we fish for eels. Obviously, elver fishing is in decline because eel populations are declining due to elver harvesting in the United States. Anyway, there are all sorts of factors.

Mr. Bourdages, what I'm hearing is that basically Fisheries and Oceans Canada has been dragging its feet for 10 or 15 years. The department didn't conduct the necessary studies to reopen areas. Have I understood correctly?

[Gaston Bourdages]

Yes, you're right. Officials from Fisheries and Oceans Canada have not made any progress. This allows fisheries officers to go around and issue fines instead of putting the money into conducting analyses with a view to opening shellfish harvesting areas.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

I'm not sure if it's Fisheries and Oceans Canada that has helicopters to chase down and charge the guilty parties, but instead of putting money into these helicopters, the money should be spent on testing the water. My understanding is that this has not been done for several years.

Do you know whether, as we speak, Fisheries and Oceans Canada and Environment Canada—I think several departments are involved—are passing the buck back and forth or if it's actually Fisheries and Oceans Canada that's not fulfilling its responsibilities on this?

[Gaston Bourdages]

I can't speak to that because I'm not in their offices. However, I worked as a civil engineer in Gaspésie. I worked with Transport Canada, with the Canadian Coast Guard, and with some boards. I also worked on water treatment. I was an engineer and I used to monitor equipment at city water treatment facilities. If I can use a tennis analogy, I'd say the ball was too big for the racquet.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Earlier, you said there were 350 areas initially. Were all 350 areas you mentioned in Gaspésie?

[Gaston Bourdages]

It was 300—

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

The document that was presented to us has a map that shows mollusc areas. I suppose it basically covers all molluscs, not just softshell clams. There are some areas on the Côte‑Nord, all the way to my region. There's a banner across from Camping Rivière‑Ouelle showing that all mollusc fishing is prohibited. As such, it's not prohibited in Gaspésie alone. I think it's also prohibited where I'm from.

I took some notes. You said that 87 of the 350 sites are open. You spoke about 48 sites, 41 of which are closed. Therefore, fishing is only allowed in seven areas. How many years has it been since just seven areas have been open? Has it been more than 10 years?

[Gaston Bourdages]

It's been more than 20 years, since 2009 or 2007.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Is that since the moratorium was declared?

[Gaston Bourdages]

Since the moratorium was declared, since 1990.

In Quebec, 325 shellfish areas have been identified and 87 have been opened. In our sector, 48 areas have been identified between Gaspé and Miguasha, but 41 are closed.

We only have the right to harvest on seven sites and yet, there are no ongoing analyses at the open sites.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

That's the problem.

Ms. Allard, do you go to the areas where fishing is allowed, or do you go to the areas where it's not allowed?

You're not going to be arrested here. You won't go to prison.

[Dorina Allard]

No, I always go to the authorized site, which has been expanded slightly towards Saint‑Omer, although not by much.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Has it been expanded by one kilometre?

[Dorina Allard]

No, I don't think so. It's less than that.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

What made them decide to expand that area?

[Dorina Allard]

We had a map, but the map is useless out on the water. I'd say that it's hard to say with certainty where the zone is.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

There are no markers showing areas where fishing is allowed and where it's prohibited.

[Dorina Allard]

No. Fishers put one up because there's a bank around a barachois. Those are the terms.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Isn't that basically on the coastline?

[Dorina Allard]

One fisher put up a marker.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

He put up a marker.

[Dorina Allard]

However, it was there for one or two years, and then it disappeared.

I don't take any chances. I rely on one house as a landmark and from there I know I can fish.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Are you concerned that Fisheries and Oceans can chase you by helicopter? Is that one of the reasons you don't go a little further to the left or a little further to the right?

[Dorina Allard]

No, I'm not concerned about any of that, but I do make sure the softshell clams are the minimum length, which is 51 millimetres, and I take no more than the maximum number, which is 300.

An officer even commended me when he came up to see me.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Have you ever undergone an inspection?

[Dorina Allard]

Yes, we see them coming.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

That means inspectors are on the ground regularly.

[Dorina Allard]

There are none right now. We don't see them anymore. I haven't seen them for a long time.

An officer came up to see me about three or four years ago and offered to help me bring up my bucket of softshell clams. I'd already walked one kilometre with my bucket and so I told him I was doing just fine on my own. He was very polite all the same.

He looked at my softshell clams and commended me because all of them were the right length.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Those are officials from Fisheries and Oceans Canada. They're not—

[Dorina Allard]

Yes, but I know many people that have been fined and that's disappointing because if they have three extra three softshell clams, those clams will cost them around $250. I'm not sure exactly how much the fine is. In addition, it's hard to be sure you're in the right area. The officers don't really know how to deal with us either, because some answer back.

However, I think we have the right—

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

I've run out of time. However, you referred to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I'm sorry, but I have to cut you off here. Your time is up.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

We'll go next to Mr. Connors for five minutes.

[Paul Connors, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Hello. Thank you for coming out. I'm enjoying this. I'm from Newfoundland. We don't have a clam industry in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Ms. Allard, you mentioned that your brothers and sisters would collect clams and give them to a canning factory or facility.

[Dorina Allard]

They didn't give them away. It was the early 1960s. They would collect massive amounts of clams too. I believe it used to be motorized. I remember that. There are some statistics here, but I don't really understand them. A bucket of clams used to go for less than $1, and it cost $4 in 1970. The canning factory closed down at one point.

I remember going to harvest clams and having a swim. When the tide was really out, we'd walk up to the end of the sandbank, sit down in the water, do some digging and wrap clams in our sweaters. The sunburn would turn our backs purple. We'd build a bonfire on the beach in the evening and have a friendly clam bake. Those are the things I remember. I'd also go fishing with my father, who was pretty fast, and I had to keep up with him and pick up the clams.

[Paul Connors, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Is there a commercial clam fishery now? Does anyone collect these for commercial reasons?

[Dorina Allard]

No, but that used to happen. Some people would harvest clams and sell them under the table, but they'd get caught. You can't do that anymore.

[Paul Connors, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Is this is a recreational food-type fishery that you do for recreation and for your own food?

[Dorina Allard]

Yes, absolutely. It's also healthy to walk and breathe in the salty air. There's the estuary of Nouvelle River and a ton of birds. Personally, I like going out there to harvest softshell clams as much as I like eating them.

[Paul Connors, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

What would be a fine that you would receive for going out clam fishing...for a helicopter to chase you and to give you a fine, a penalty?

[Dorina Allard]

Mr. Roberge said $250 per clam. I've never been fined, but my son has. He's gone to court twice, and he lost his case. Sometimes we go clam digging in spring and in the fall. It's quite cold in the spring. One time, I remember thinking that it was starting to get cold and that my son should have been home already. He had been caught with a few softshell clams over the limit.

[Paul Connors, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Mr. Bourdages, do you want to make some comments on that?

[Gaston Bourdages]

The best place to harvest clams is in cold water, therefore in the spring and the fall. People don't harvest clams in the summer because they're not edible at that time of year. That’s really important. Yes, there used to be a clam factory in the 1960s, but it closed down. After that, a moratorium on fishing was declared in 1990. There were 48 fishing zones in Chaleur Bay and only seven of them are open today. That set a precedent. The clams are there and they're growing. There are clams there.

The softshell clam I've shown the committee is very small. We don't like to harvest them because they're too small for us. A good clam is three to four inches big. It's funny, because last night in my hotel room, I was watching a show and people were harvesting softshell clams in Maine. I came across it by chance, and I couldn't believe it. I was in Ottawa to talk about softshell clams and I just happened to come across a TV5 show featuring commercial softshell clam harvesting in Maine. They have restaurants there that only serve breaded softshell clams with fries. It's a local delicacy in Maine. We can't have that here in Quebec because we're not allowed to harvest them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Connors.

Mr. Deschênes, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Let's continue discussing that paradox.

First, there are some long-standing requests from Chaleur Bay. Requests are submitted virtually every year. Research documents say that one of the reasons softshell clam harvesting has not been opened up is that three departments are involved and, in any case, they don't have the resources. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Department of Environment and Climate Change Canada all say they're stretched to the limit.

They say they don't have the resources to open new sites, and yet when people go out to harvest clams, there are officers from Fisheries and Oceans. There's no shortage of funding to crack down on recreational fishers. How do you feel about that, Mr. Roberge?

I used to be a legal aid lawyer and fathers would come see me after being fined at Easter for harvesting softshell clams with their eight-year-old grandchildren. They were being treated like criminals.

How does it make you feel when you see this kind of double standard, when there's money for law enforcement, but none to open new sites?

[Ghislain Roberge]

They say they don't have money, but they sure had the money to chase us down in helicopters, and I can only imagine what that costs per hour.

The sea is right in front of us and 20 kilometres away in New Brunswick, they're allowed to harvest softshell clams. It's the same water. Then, they have oyster farming in Bonaventure and Saint‑Siméon, but we aren't allowed to harvest softshell clams because we've been told the water is polluted. It's clean enough for oysters, but not for softshell clams. Why is that? I don't know.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Perhaps more sites are open on the New Brunswick side than in Chaleur Bay, on the Quebec side. What do you think of that?

[Ghislain Roberge]

I don't know how many sites are open in New Brunswick, but I do know they're allowed to harvest softshell clams in New Brunswick.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Ms. Allard and Mr. Bourdages, how do you feel about this paradox?

[Gaston Bourdages]

As Mr. Lévesque said, it's a really stupid paradox. Mr. Roberge talked about Bonaventure. Fisheries and Oceans Canada authorized oyster farming on a softshell clam site where we're not allowed to fish. That's outrageous. We may be travelling side by side, but our final destinations differ.

When it comes to opening sites, as Mr. Roberge noted, two areas in New Brunswick have waste water treatment facilities: Bathurst and Campbellton. There's a 120-kilometre stretch between the two that has no waste water treatment. People harvest tons of softshell clams, which they're allowed to sell. It's quite a paradox.

Someone somewhere at Fisheries and Oceans Canada doesn't want things to move forward. Are they hoping to get a certificate of recognition for issuing the most fines in the world?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much. I'm sorry, but the member's time is up.

We have just enough time for two rounds of three and a half minutes each.

You have the floor, Mr. Arnold.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I'll start with Ms. Allard.

How much has the population increased in the area where you live and harvest? How many more people are there now than there were 25 years ago?

[Dorina Allard]

Do you mean in the entire Gaspésie or in the fishing area? The population in Saint‑Omer and Miguasha has increased by less than 3,000 people. I'm not really sure. There are maybe 5,000 more in Saint‑Omer and Carleton‑sur‑Mer and 3,000 or 4,000 more in Maria.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

It's not a large increase, then.

[Dorina Allard]

No.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Are more people harvesting clams now than 25 years ago?

[Dorina Allard]

Let's face it, families were bigger before. I'm the last of nine children. Things are different now. More newcomers have come through immigration. Families are smaller and there's a more diverse range of jobs. Things have really changed. I don't think there's an overabundance of softshell clams. However, I suppose that if people dig in the same areas all the time, the clams won't be as big as they are in Bonaventure.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Bourdages, how far apart are some of the closed areas and the open areas? How many kilometres apart would a closed area be from an open area, approximately?

[Gaston Bourdages]

There's about 150 kilometres of shoreline between Port‑Daniel—Gascons and Miguasha, and 48 sites. In some areas, softshell clam fishing is prohibited for 10 to 15 kilometres. In Bonaventure, where Mr. Roberge also lives, clam fishing is permitted for about 3 kilometres. At one point, there's probably only one kilometre that offers great softshell clam fishing, but it's closed. The Port‑Daniel—Gascons site is the only one that's open, and the next site is in Gaspé. There's approximately 100 kilometres between Port‑Daniel—Gascons and Miguasha without an open site.

What's the big deal? Fifteen years ago, the population of the Gaspésie was 210,000, but now it's less than 82,000.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Before I run out of time, it sounds like the open and closed areas are mixed along the shore—along the same river. Rivers run downhill like everything does. It's the same water flowing past all these sites, yet some are open and some are closed. Is that correct?

[Gaston Bourdages]

Yes. Bonaventure has Bonaventure River. Port‑Daniel—Gascons has Port‑Daniel River, which flows downhill, and the area isn't closed. There's a huge factory nearby. Nothing in Bonaventure dumps pollutants into the sea other than the waste water treatment facility. Maria also has a treatment facility. Carleton-sur-Mer has a treatment facility, and so does Nouvelle. All those zones are closed.

There were no treatment facilities 35 years ago and we used to harvest as many softshell clams as we wanted. I'm not sick. I'm 72 years old and I've harvested softshell clams with my father and with Mr. Roberge for 50 years. We're here to debate this issue, but normally we wouldn't be here. We'd be out fishing because it's low tide right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Arnold.

We'll finish with Ms. Petitpas Taylor, who has three and a half minutes.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I wish to once again thank our witnesses for joining us today. I've greatly appreciated the presentations by Ms. Allard, Mr. Bourdages and Mr. Roberge.

I'm an Acadian from New Brunswick and I used to harvest softshell clams with my family. I have fond memories of that time. We really loved clam digging.

I have a fairly simple question for the three of you. We're conducting a study that's very important to you and your community. What message do you want to get across to the committee today?

Ms. Allard, you can go first.

[Dorina Allard]

My message is that we hope we have been heard and that it will be easier for us to go fishing.

I've eaten softshell clams in Tracadie‑Sheila many times. My brother-in-law lives there, and fishing is allowed. My message is that this issue needs to be addressed. Perhaps they can reduce spending elsewhere, I don't know. We often hear that there's money to burn. Most of that money comes from us Canadians, so why not spend some of it on something as simple and straightforward as this? Clams are within our reach, as long as they're safe and edible and they've been tested, if need be. I've never had any concerns. If a clam doesn't look right, we don't harvest it, but that never happens.

[Ginette Petitpas Taylor, Liberal, Moncton—Dieppe, NB]

Over to you, Mr. Bourdages.

[Gaston Bourdages]

It's a pleasure to see you again, Ms. Petitpas Taylor. We've met a few times before.

It's quite frustrating to drive along the Chaleur Bay shoreline and to see all these shellfish harvesting areas where harvesting is not allowed. People are frustrated.

If I had booked three buses today and made some posters announcing that we want to go softshell clam harvesting, I've no doubt the three buses would have been fully booked. People don't have the means to pay a $250 fine for every clam they dig up. They want to harvest clams in their own backyard, within their community. This area is managed by Fisheries and Oceans Canada, which has not stepped up to manage it properly.

Yes, some sectors can be analyzed, and the decision can be made not to authorize fishing in some areas if they are too contaminated, but there are still areas that are perfectly suitable for fishing. The fact is that this has been done successfully in the Mingan area. On March 15, fishers received a letter stating that a softshell clam harvesting area would be opened in Mingan. Port‑Cartier is open year-round. People in Port‑Cartier fish all year long. My brother-in-law lives there and he rubs it in all the time. He calls me to say he's filled a five-gallon pot and wants me to come over for dinner. It takes me eight hours to get to his place by car and by boat. It makes me sick, but I'll be there for Easter. I told him to go fishing and we'll have some together over Easter in Port‑Cartier.

I welcome the fact that Fisheries and Oceans Canada, along with the competent people, is looking into opening softshell clam harvesting areas by section, sector or area. The clams are there, and I'm sure we can harvest them.

Thank you, Ms. Petitpas Taylor.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Ms. Petitpas Taylor.

That brings us to the end of our first panel. I'd like to thank our witnesses for attending this meeting in person and remotely. Their testimony will help the committee with its recommendations for the government.

With that, we are going to briefly suspend while we welcome our next panel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Colleagues, we're back.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the new panel.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to unmute your mike and please mute yourself when you're not speaking.

For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

All comments should be addressed through the chair.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Center for Initiation to Research and Support for Sustainable Development, we have Esteban Figueroa, researcher and executive assistant, impact on training.

From Merinov, we have David Courtemanche, general manager; and Marie‑Gil Fortin, industrial researcher and project manager. Both of them are participating by video conference.

From the Mi'gmaq Wolastoqey Indigenous Fisheries Management Association, we have Catherine Lambert Koizumi, executive director; and Jeremy Jerome, commercial fisher. Both of them are also participating by video conference.

We will now hear opening statements. Witnesses will have up to five minutes for their remarks, beginning with Mr. Esteban Figueroa.

[Esteban Figueroa, Researcher and Executive Assistant, Impact on Training, Center for Initiation to Research and Support for Sustainable Development]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members.

First, I would like to thank you for the invitation to participate in this committee study on recreational and traditional fishing for softshell clam in the Gaspésie. As you can see from the testimony you have heard, fishing for softshell clam is rooted in history and the relationship with the area is also very important for people who engage in this activity.

I work with the Center for Initiation to Research and Support for Sustainable Development, and in the course of my work, I was involved in a project with historians in 2020. We collected data to document this activity and the results of the ethnographic study showed that softshell clam fishing in the Gaspésie remains a vibrant and socially important activity.

Each spring and fall, hundreds of Gaspésie residents gather on the tidelands to mark the change of seasons and the return to the sea after winter. There's a very symbolic aspect to this activity, which is a true temporal and cultural signifier, linked with key times on the social and family calendar, as you have heard from witnesses.

Three key findings emerged from the study I did with my colleagues. They relate to intangible cultural heritage, sustainable local development and food self-sufficiency.

Clam fishing is part of the intangible cultural heritage that is based on local knowledge. As you have heard, social practices and activities are passed on from generation to generation. All of this confirms that this activity fully meets the criteria for intangible cultural heritage. It is transmitted to others not through textbooks or training, but orally, from one person to another, from one generation to the next. Learning involves observing the tides, the moon and winds. This knowledge transmission depends on relationships, meaning that there are family and friendship ties between people who engage in this activity, and this helps build individuals' identity and maintain a close link with the Gaspésie coast and community.

When it comes to local sustainable development, the study highlighted some self-regulating mechanisms that are well established among clam fishers. The 15 or so fishers who were interviewed emphasized the importance of having respect for other users of the resource, avoiding overfishing the same area, and complying with size and quantity limits, as Ms. Allard also noted. This culture of moderation and respect for the local environment is already a solid foundation on which controlled openings of new harvesting areas could be based. It also shows that clam fishing is not an unbridled activity, but rather a deeply rooted and socially regulated local practice that is compatible with sustainable resource management principles.

Finally, when it comes to food self-sufficiency, the testimony gathered revealed that clam fishing already makes a significant contribution to the local food supply. The clams are eaten fresh, processed, canned or added to family recipes that are handed down from one generation to the next. Many clam fishers explicitly link this activity to a kind of food self-sufficiency, noting that it is a local, accessible and available resource, unlike more industrialized food models. Opening new areas would boost this contribution to the food supply while strengthening the resilience of coastal communities.

Beyond the nutritional dimension, as I mentioned earlier, clam fishing is replete with symbolism. It represents a tangible relationship with the land. People identify with the land, these practices and the natural dimension. Fishing takes place in spring and fall, but mostly in spring. It is seen as a distinctive feature of the Gaspésie identity. This widely shared social recognition enhances the legitimacy of sustaining this fishing activity, rather than restricting it, because it is also a traditional activity.

Given the current concerns regarding food self-sufficiency and sustainable development, it would seem necessary to rethink regulatory frameworks governing access to this recreational fishery and to consider a controlled opening of new harvesting areas. This opening should be based on a gradual and coordinated approach that includes environmental assessments with sampling, consideration of local knowledge—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I'm sorry to cut you off, but your time is almost up. I'll ask you to wrap up quickly.

[Esteban Figueroa]

Okay.

In conclusion, the findings of the research project that we conducted demonstrate that clam fishing is an ongoing, structured, socially regulated and meaningful activity for communities in the Gaspésie. By recognizing the strategic benefits of this activity and adapting the regulatory framework to the realities of local communities, the federal government would be taking meaningful action that is consistent with the aspirations of coastal communities and the principles of sustainable resource development.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much.

We'll now hear from David Courtemanche and Marie‑Gil Fortin, for five minutes or less.

[David Courtemanche, General Manager, Merinov]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting us to this meeting.

Merinov is Canada's largest integrated research and innovation centre in fisheries, aquaculture and seafood processing. Merinov is a non-profit organization, and like the Center for Initiation to Research and Support for Sustainable Development, our mission is to support organizations and businesses in the sector, which is fisheries in Merinov's case.

Regarding the topic at hand, Merinov has been a subcontractor for Environment Canada for over 30 years. We conduct water quality analyses in the shellfish harvesting areas of the Gaspésie and the Îles de la Madeleine for the Canadian shellfish sanitation program, or CSSP.

Merinov has a team trained to collect water samples according to established standards, and a fleet of Zodiac boats and equipment of various sizes, allowing us to collect samples in both open waters and shallow waters along the coastline.

Merinov also operates an ISO 17025-accredited microbiology laboratory for fecal coliform analysis in seawater, using the required method. It is the only laboratory in eastern Quebec, or rather in the Gaspésie and the Îles de la Madeleine, with this accreditation.

The opening and closing of shellfish production or harvesting sites is a complex process involving two departments and a federal agency, namely, Environment Canada, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, as well as service providers that conduct analyses as required to support decision-making. Merinov is one of the service providers that support the departments' missions. This strict process is important to prevent poisonings that can be fatal and to keep export markets open to Canadian products.

If you will allow me, I would like to give the floor to Marie‑Gil Fortin, our industrial researcher who is responsible for the project with Environment Canada pertaining to monitoring water quality. She will be able to give you more details on our role and the main areas in which Merinov could provide assistance to communities and organizations in the area to enable the opening of new sites.

[Marie-Gil Fortin, Industrial Researcher-Project Manager, Merinov]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

I have been responsible for the project with Environment Canada since 2022. As part of our mandate with the department, our role is limited to water sampling and analysis.

The sampling plan is determined by Environment Canada and is sometimes adjusted by department officials based on available budgets. Environment Canada is also responsible for interpreting the results and recommending whether to open or close harvesting areas.

In addition to performing regular CSSP analyses, we offer water assessment, sampling and analysis services to aquaculture businesses and community groups that want to open new areas for commercial or recreational harvesting.

Opening a new site requires different types of evaluations and analyses.

The first step is to assess the abundance of biomass at the target site. This step is the responsibility of Fisheries and Oceans Canada. We checked with officials from the department, and they agreed to share their methodology. They also agreed to consider the results provided by Merinov. Generally, for softshell clams, the density depends on the type of sediment. Sites with fine mud and sand are conducive to the presence of softshell clams.

The second step is to assess the sources of pollution that could affect the site. The most common sources of pollution that can prevent a site from opening are waste water treatment systems and runoff from agricultural areas. This step is the responsibility of Environment Canada. Officials from the department have already assessed a number of sites. Not all results are publicly available, and it is therefore important to check with them to see if the site in question has already been assessed.

The third step is water quality monitoring, which involves sampling and laboratory analysis by service providers and the data submitted to Environment Canada. Opening a new site requires a minimum of 15 sampling rounds over a two-year period. Once the site is classified by the CSSP, regular sampling with five sampling rounds must then be conducted annually.

The fourth and final step is to assess the biotoxins present in the flesh of the molluscs. This step is carried out by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, but it comes only as a last resort since toxins do not remain in the flesh for long and it would therefore be pointless to characterize them too far in advance.

Finally, it is important to note that the Quebec regional interministerial committee for shellfish, which is comprised of all the departments involved in the decision-making, is the entry point for submitting a request to open a new area.

In summary, Merinov could provide assistance with biomass characterization and water quality monitoring for the opening of new harvesting sites.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much.

Finally, we will hear from Catherine Lambert Koizumi and Jeremy Jerome, for five minutes or less.

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi, Executive Director, Mi'gmaq Wolastoqey Indigenous Fisheries Management Association]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, everyone.

My name is Catherine Lambert Koizumi. I am the executive director of the AGHAMW, or the Mi'gmaq Wolastoqey Indigenous Fisheries Management Association. It is a pleasure to be with you this evening. The AGHAMW supports three first nations in the Gespe'gewa'gi and the Wolastoq in the sustainable management and conservation of marine ecosystems, acknowledging their rights and fostering their participation in the governance of fisheries and aquaculture.

From time immemorial, clam harvesting has been an essential traditional activity for our communities in terms of both our culture and our food. Our communities would like to regain access to historic harvesting sites which today have been closed for a number of years. We feel that several areas have real potential for reopening.

As I understand it, access remains limited for three main reasons. First, the closures do not always reflect the alleged risks; they often reflect a lack of recent data that would confirm that they are viable. Then, federal resources for sampling and testing have been decreasing since the 1980s, meaning that the closures become mechanical. With fewer stations and fewer data, fewer areas are open. Finally, the current model used by the Canadian Shellfish Sanitation Program does not fully account for the ability and knowledge of first nations, despite their constant presence on the ground and their expertise in fisheries management.

We at AGHAMW would like to propose three concrete solutions: invest in testing and monitoring programs, include first nations in data collection and monitoring, and establish co-management pilot projects so that areas where data show satisfactory viability can be progressively reopened.

We believe that harvesting sites can be reopened and that doing so is safe and desirable. All that is required is targeted investment and meaningful collaboration with the communities.

I will now yield the floor to my colleague, Jeremy Jerome, who will be able to tell you how important the activity is for his community and for himself.

.Wela'lioq, woliwon.

[Jeremy Jerome, Commercial Fisher, Mi'gmaq Wolastoqey Indigenous Fisheries Management Association]

[Witness spoke in Mi'kmaq]

[English]

I spoke in my mother tongue because that's who I am.

I thank the chairman for having me here, along with everybody else around the table.

I would like to speak of the the clam in particular. It's an important food source. It's the beginning of a new season and it is hard to not be able to harvest this little delicacy. Like my friend Gaston mentioned, we drive along a long stretch of coastline and we are not allowed to stop to pick clams. It's heartbreaking. We still have elders in our communities who don't have access and it's not everybody that... I don't know how to express it. I'm here before you because I was asked to appear, and I'm here because this is something that I've been affected by. Hopefully, we will band together, the people from Bonaventure, Port-Daniel and all these places where they pick clams—not just the Mi'kmaq, but the small communities that thrived on clams.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Jerome.

With that, we're going to go into a round of questions, starting with Mr. Small for six minutes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for either of the folks from Merinov, whoever would like to answer.

How's the quality of the water and the occurrence of toxins, pathogens and whatnot currently compared with how it was when you began your role of testing the water for these various government departments?

[Marie-Gil Fortin]

Water quality is much the same as it was before. Actually, I should clarify that our data are only for areas that are open. So generally, the quality of the water that we test is very good because those sites are specifically selected. I have no precise information on water quality over time for the sites that we do not monitor.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

How do the people of Baie des Chaleurs expect to gain equitable access to these clam harvesting areas if the areas that are closed aren't being tested? That sounds awfully strange to me.

[David Courtemanche]

I can add that most sites were actually open twenty or so years ago, so they were tested. Then the Department of the Environment and Climate Change decided to concentrate on areas with a more commercial fishery. The other areas were closed by default. That is why we are now in a situation where, 20 or 25 years later, the areas are still closed by default. If a community organization wants to have a site reopened, it has to demonstrate quite exhaustively that the area is safe and secure for fishing, harvesting or production.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

How efficient do you think the process is? You're working amongst three departments federally in three or four provinces, and in Quebec, you're looking at an additional one. On top of the three federal ones, you've got a provincial one there. Do you think that we've got some overzealous bureaucrats looking after their own jobs while punishing the people who are relying on this resource? Is that possible?

[David Courtemanche]

We're not in a position to comment on this aspect. However, the three different departments have different fields of expertise or fields where they have to accredit to open or close the site. There are different mandates associated with the departments. From what we've seen, we don't think it's an efficiency issue here. It's more a resource issue. As Catherine just mentioned a few minutes ago, the resources were diminished or reduced in the different departments and probably that led to this kind of situation where now the public has to pay for these kinds of services.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Mr. Courtemanche, did the funding that was allocated to carry out this testing come from the aquatic ecosystems budget within DFO?

[David Courtemanche]

For the sampling that we are currently doing, the funds come from Environment and Climate Change Canada. Depending on the length of the contract, they are renewed every three years or so. The issue generally is indeed financial resources. The department is limited in the resources it can allocate to the sampling that is currently being done. Every three years, in fact, the department tells us that resources are limited.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Basically, we're told that this is about a 10-year-old problem. There were very many years in the last 10 years where there was lots of funding. There have been some cuts here this year, but this is a multi-year problem that we're looking at here. Can you blame the buildup of this crisis in the local communities on budgeting when it's a 10-year-old problem?

[David Courtemanche]

I cannot comment on this one.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Would anyone like to comment?

Mr. Généreux, would you like to have what's left of my time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Only 10 seconds remain. We can come back to this in the next round.

With that, we're going to go to Mr. Klassen, for six minutes.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you very much, and again welcome to the witnesses.

It sounds like there is an issue of a bit of a manpower or person power shortage to go out and do all the testing. I'm sure we're all in agreement that we want to ensure the safety of the people who are consuming the fish or the shellfish as well as for the harvesters.

Mr. Figueroa, you talked about socially and culturally appropriate processes. Is there a commercial component to this? if there is enough testing, could we look at a commercial component to harvesting?

[Esteban Figueroa]

As has been mentioned, it's recreational fishing. There is no commercial harvesting. It seems that it would be difficult to open a commercial fishery in the areas that are currently open. We are already working to make it more accessible to the public, but there has been no commercial fishing for a good many years.

We are really trying to develop all the social and community aspects, which are very strong in Gaspésie. A request for a site to be opened could come from a committee of people from a community and of experts. We can see here that we have experts ready to work together. It certainly could be interesting to establish an interdisciplinary project. It would be possible, but, of course, it would take resources that, as you have recognized, are shinking.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Fortin, I think you said that for a time there weren't enough people to test the waters. From the time a request goes in to open a site, how long is the testing process before a site can be opened again?

[Marie-Gil Fortin]

To open a new site, Environment and Climate Change Canada requires a series of 15 tests spread over 18 months. They can be receptive to historical data, if there are any. Then they could ask for slightly fewer tests. But if a site has never previously been documented, they will ask for 15 samples over a period of 18 months.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Do you think there are new technologies or methods that could speed up the testing process?

[Marie-Gil Fortin]

The test process itself is not terribly long. Testing is done within 30 hours after the water was sampled. Staff to do the testing is not a problem. The delay is mostly due to the documentation of the site, which has to be done over a year and a half. The department really wants seasonal data. That process cannot be sped up.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Lambert Koizumi, is there a commercial component to the indigenous communities for the fish harvesting?

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

At the moment, the issue is with a subsistence fishery, meaning that it is about a food source, rituals and social needs. However, if we came to realize that there were enough clams for sustainable harvesting, activities could be diversified. As we have just heard, New Brunswick has a commercial fishery. I do not see why that could not be the case in Quebec. It would also help to diversify community revenues.

Perhaps Mr. Jerome would like to add something.

[Jeremy Jerome]

I just want to add that it would be great at subsistence level.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

You mentioned the elders, Mr. Jerome, and the lack of being able to fish right now. They would appreciate having that back, as it is a tradition within their culture. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[Jeremy Jerome]

Culturally speaking, given the number of years we haven't had access, it's sad to say that it's a dying.... Speaking for myself right now, I'm an active commercial fisherman. I'm still healthy enough to go out and pick just the same.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I think we would all agree that we don't want to see this as a dying part of your tradition. If there was a way that we could bring this back into your culture, how would you see that process happening?

[Jeremy Jerome]

Basically, it would just be to have more access within our community. By rights, we have access to the east and to the west of our community. Given the closures of areas, we're right in the middle of it all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much.

We now move to Mr. Deschênes for six minutes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for their enlightening and helpful testimony. We are seeing that, at a technical level, we do have the capacity to open new sites, especially with Merinov's support.

Mr. Jerome, thank you for your testimony. I agree with you: This is something on which all the communities in Chaleur Bay can work together. They could revive a tradition that is unfortunately dying. I am quite open to working together, hand in hand, on this.

If I understood correctly, you used to pick clams on the tidal flats at Gesgapegiag. Do you remember those times?

[Jeremy Jerome]

Yes, I certainly do. It was in the western part of the community, almost in the village of Maria. We would walk along the shore. It probably took us 30 to 45 minutes to reach the spot I remember. That spot is still there. I have been there; I wouldn't say I was picked up, but fishery officers caught me.

I went to court and paid some fines. But it has never stopped me from picking clams.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

You are like Mr. Roberge.

[Jeremy Jerome]

Yes, I am a bit like him. A lot of things happen at night, even fishing.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

So you had to deal with an enforcement issue too: fishery officers were there and gave you tickets.

[Jeremy Jerome]

Yes, but I had a good discussion with the group. We talked about human resources. I remember that I was alone with one of my little cousins and there were four or five officers on the beach. I went over to see what was happening. They told me that the site was closed and I had no right to be picking. They were talking about tests.

I wondered about the validity of the test. I asked when the darned testing was last done. They looked at each other, all four or five of them, and they had no answer. Their answer was that they did not know.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Jerome.

Ms. Lambert Koizumi, basically, here's the problem. We know the water is fine because there are sites already. We have the technical ability to open them. The problem is the lack of resources. The federal government does not want to bother.

I asked for sites to be opened in December. The answer I received was that they felt obliged to tell me that the Canadian shellfish sanitation program was not in a position to support requests for further expansion because of the constraints on resources.

Has your association had a similar experience and a similar response from the federal government?

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

We certainly have. We have gone through much the same thing. The AGHAMW has had a marine farming site in Paspédiac Bay since 2018. We grow algae there.

As one of our mandates is diversification, we wanted to add molluscs, specifically scallops, as another crop at our site. When we wrote to try to get permission, we were thinking that we would work with Merinov to collect water samples and have them tested, so that we could get approval to add that species to our aquaculture permit.

However, we were told that nothing could be done. It didn't seem to be a question of money, because we had the funds to pay for the testing. We had the ability to go and collect the samples. I don't have the answer in front of me, but it was exactly as you said. At the moment, nothing can be done, but we don't really know why. But apparently, no service is available to move our request forward.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Mr. Courtemanche, you will be able to speak right afterwards.

Ms. Lambert Koizumi, in the case you described, you were willing to pay all the costs.

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

Yes, absolutely.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

But the reply from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, from Environment and Climate Change Canada, or from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans was that they didn't even have the time to look at it, right?

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

Exactly. It was not about the money, because we were ready to go; we even had the funding to help us develop the coculture. But, at the moment, everything is on hold because the feds are not able to respond.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

They aren't able to respond to a request.

Mr. Courtemanche, you want to add something.

[David Courtemanche]

Yes, just a little. Given that only a handful of sites are open, the pressure that fishing puts on those open sites is much greater than if other sites were open. In terms of biomass or stock management, that's certainly an additional problem.

I have also picked clams, softshell and hardshell, with my family, with my children and my father-in-law at the time. On days when sites were open, the pressure was great. Crowds of people were there. It shows how important a social activity it is in Gaspésie—

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

I am sorry that I am cutting you off because I do not have a lot of time. But what you are telling us is super-important.

So basically, when the federal government refuses to open new sites on the pretext that it doesn't have the resources—although it can send masses of officers to crack down on us—there's an effect on the sustainability of the sites that are currently open.

[David Courtemanche]

Yes, absolutely. If we could distribute that pressure among more sites—

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Right. It's not good public policy in terms of sustainable stocks.

[David Courtemanche]

Exactly.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Mr. Courtemanche, you have the technical capacity—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I am sorry, but the time is up.

That completes the first round. We are now starting the second round. The bells may start ringing, but I hope there will be unanimous consent to continue a little longer.

Mr. Généreux, the floor is yours for four minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Lambert Koizumi, to my knowledge, first nations have hunting rights. If I am not mistaken, they have the right to hunt in certain parts of Gaspésie. Is there not the same kind of thing for fishing? Don't you have ancestral rights there too?

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

Yes, absolutely. Treaties do recognize ancestral treaty rights. That's certainly the case. But there are also agreements between communities and the government. Each year, we have to go through formal and administrative steps. Often, the nations have to add specific species to the permits. In some cases, agreement is reached; in others, there is no agreement. It depends on the specific species.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Are the agreements—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I am sorry to interrupt you, but the bell is ringing.

Do I have unanimous consent to continue for 10 minutes?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Généreux, you may continue.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Ms. Lambert Koizumi, are the agreements you have solely with the federal government or with the provincial government too?

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

It depends, because some species are managed by the province. Most marine species are managed federally. In those cases, our agreements are with the feds. But salmon and anadromous species, for example, are managed provincially.

But, yes, first nations do have recognized rights.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Okay.

Mr. Courtemanche, in his testimony just now, Mr. Bourdages was saying that, in a stretch of about 150 kilometres, some sites are open and some sites are closed. In 150 kilometres in Chaleur Bay, what makes the water good in one place and not good in another place one, two, three, five or ten kilometres away? What makes the difference?

I honestly have difficulty understanding that. I do understand that every inch of water in 150 kilometres is not tested and that places to take water samples have to be chosen. But, if I understood correctly, Mr. Bourdages was just telling us that seven out of 48 potential locations are currently open in a stretch of 150 kilometres.

So, how can one say that the water is not good somewhere five kilometres away from a place where it has been evaluated as good?

Can you try to explain that to me?

[David Courtemanche]

It is actually quite localized. There is agricultural runoff. There are compliant and non-complaint septic tanks. There are waste water treatment plants. In climate events, some discharges may go directly into the sea. Various factors can actually cause one site to be open and another, not far away, to be closed.

But that is not what we are talking about at the moment. We are talking about sites being closed by default, just because they are not being sampled. That's the difference. If those sites were sampled, it might be possible to open them, but then others would remain closed.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Courtemanche, if I understand correctly, we are allowing the resource in the seven open sites to dwindle while actually pretending that the other sites are closed to protect them, even though there may be nothing wrong with the water. That water is not even being sampled, so there's no way of knowing whether it's good or not. Basically, we are destroying the clam stocks in the open sites and not even sampling others. That just makes no sense to me. To say nothing of all the money we spend for people to monitor the beaches in helicopters at all hours of the day and night. There's all kinds of money for that, but none for research. I feel that all Gaspésie should rise up and say that it makes no sense.

I am so pleased that Mr. Deschênes asked for this study. This is about tradition, about first nations and about a quality food source. When people tell us that they have been eating clams for 50 years and, at 75, they have never been ill, surely, at some point, we have to stop getting worked up. I feel we could even open the sites and test the water simultaneously. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Mr. Bourdages, I understand that there can be a difference when there's a river that may have some agricultural residue. But the water in the bay changes twice a day. It's flushed clean, just as it is in the St. Lawrence River where I live. Moreover, water quality has been improving considerably for years, especially with all the water treatment plants that are now everywhere in Gaspésie.

I am not blaming you, of course, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I am sorry, Mr. Généreux, but your time is up.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC]

I think that there will be other studies. Anyway, the study will continue, with officials present. That will be interesting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I am sorry, but we have to keep going.

Mr. Morrisey, the floor is yours for four minutes.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Chair, I'm going to turn my time over to Monsieur Deschênes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Mr. Deschênes, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

I am grateful to Mr. Généreux for his support. It will be much appreciated at home in Gaspésie.

Let me start with you, Mr. Courtemanche. Let's say we move forward and succeed in getting the political will to finally fix this injustice whereby Chaleur Bay has been forgotten for too long. From a technical point of view, since Merinov is already a subcontractor for Environment and Climate Change Canada, would you be in a position to lead the expertise needed to test the water and open new sites in Chaleur Bay?

[David Courtemanche]

Yes, and we could also train community groups of samplers. For example, the Mi'gmaq Wolastoqey Indigenous Fisheries Management Association and other organizations are already set up. That would reduce the costs needed to open a site.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Can you expand on that idea? Would it be with volunteers?

[David Courtemanche]

The form it would take would depend on a number of factors. I feel that we have local resources all through the region. We have been talking about Chaleur Bay, but there are shellfish sites all over Gaspésie. Yes, we can provide the technical service. To reduce the sampling costs, we could also look at alternative approaches, with the approval of Environment and Climate Change Canada, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. We could do that.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Ms. Lambert Koizumi, how do you see that? If there was a will to open more sites, what work could be done with your association?

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

We at the AGHAMW have wardens in each community. We could easily take samples year-round, several times per season. We could do it 15 times over an 18‑month period, as required. I see no problem there. We could start with the shellfish beds close to communities because the priority is those that are currently closed but have been used traditionally. We can do that all over the region. We would certainly support that. We have been talking about reopening shellfish beds for a number of years. This is a really important issue for us.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Who might participate in that? How do you see it happening? Would the first nations provide volunteers?

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

It wouldn't have to be volunteers. I believe that, within reason, money would have to be allocated to pay people to go and collect samples. I feel that it's important to ensure consistency and quality of collection. Perhaps some programs already exist. It's important to find a way to make it all happen. I don't think it has to be volunteers. Ideally, there would be money to pay people. If it has to be volunteers, we could perhaps find them.

But I would prefer to work with our communities, our coastal communities, in collecting samples. Most costs are to do with the testing. It's certainly a large area, so there are travel costs, of course.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

It could be a very creative project, with all the communities along the coast working together.

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

Exactly.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Mr. Courtemanche, what would the costs be? Certainly, groups can be worked with, but, generally speaking, how much would it cost to open a new shellfish location? We know that tests have to be done over a year and a half, as we have been discussing. Approximately what does that cost?

[David Courtemanche]

I'll let Ms. Fortin say more about the costs. However, it's expensive to work on just one site. If there were more shellfish sites to open at the same time, we would sample them all in one trip. It is certainly possible to reduce the per-site or per-area costs.

[Marie-Gil Fortin]

The costs for sampling involve one Zodiac trip to cover all the points in one area. That's about $5,000 per trip. Of course, if you can do three sites in the same day, it's much less than, say, travelling to Carleton-sur-Mer to do one site only and come back the next day. To properly document a site, say needing 15 trips, you are talking about $75,000. If you do three sites a day, it's $6,000 instead of $5,000. It's really an advantage if you can sample more sites together on the same day.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

I have a question for you, Mr. Figueroa. The others can answer too.

Ms. Lambert Koizumi, did you want to add anything about the costs?

[Catherine Lambert Koizumi]

I just wanted to say that we could work with communities that are really close without having to use volunteers. AGHAMW also has a Zodiac. I think there are ways to get out there that would cost less than the figures that have been mentioned.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Let's talk about the number of sites that would have to be opened if we left Gaspésie and went south. Mr. Figueroa, you have talked to a lot of fishers. Do you have an idea of what would meet people's expectations and finally allow the tradition to continue and the resource to be more readily accessed? How many sites would we need to open?

[Esteban Figueroa]

We would have to analyze that, of course. But I would like to follow up on what my colleagues said a few minutes ago.

It's possible to do what social scientists call participatory action research. To reduce the costs, the sampling could be done by people living there. Right now, a community group in Gaspésie is being formed to provide access to the resources to people along the shoreline. So the will is there. In terms of reducing the costs of sampling, I certainly agree that it is possible.

It is also possible to do interdisciplinary projects, with social scientists and historians, for example. It's very important to gather local knowledge, from first nations communities, of course, but also from fishers who have been doing this for 40 or 50 years. They are the ones who will also be guiding the scientists collecting the samples. It's important to keep that in mind too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.

That completes our second panel.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here in person or by video conference. Testimonies can be very helpful as we finalize our report and recommendations to government.

I will flag that our next meeting is on Monday, April 13, when we're going to review the Fisheries Act study. If you have any recommendations, please send them in advance so we can go through it more quickly.

With that, the meeting is adjourned.