Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2006

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for coming.

Both your organizations are very heavily involved in development as well, as you have said. For the past many years, CIDA and everybody have been focusing on the promotion of democracy very well and also on development. Both your organizations have been doing that very well. Now the time has come to move further. Is development assistance alone sufficient for promotion of democracy, or do we have to look now at other means to see how much further we can move forward?

I just came back from Congo and saw democratic elections taking place over there. One of the areas where I am finding a severe deficiency--and that could be the areas you could look at here--is that there is absolutely no development on the political front, on political parties, on political involvement, on political links, because ultimately the players in the development of democracy are the political parties themselves. Although you have focused and talked about institutions, justice, and they're all fine and they all need to be strengthened.... However, where is this development moving, with the players? Opposition MPs have come here, and I've been an opposition MP and I've talked to them all the time; we do that. Nevertheless, as a collective from Canada, don't you think we need to focus in that direction to see what results would come out of that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Obhrai.

Madam O'Neil.

[Maureen O'Neil]

That's a really interesting question, and it's also really important to keep a long perspective when we talk about democratic development. If you think about it in terms of our western society, it was a long, long way between the Magna Carta in 1215 and aboriginals finally getting the vote in Canada in 1961. We always have to keep a long perspective when we're talking about democratic development.

Similarly, when we talk about political party development, there's a story, perhaps apocryphal, about Mobutu, after having been propped up as probably one of the bad examples of how Cold War politics played into African politics. As things began to change and western governments started to say “we want political parties here”, Mr. Mobutu said “If you need political parties you can have political parties”, because of course he could create them.

That's not what you're talking about. You're talking about how a society can offer the conditions that are sufficiently free so people can associate together, can create their own organizations, can structure them, can move ahead. We have to ask ourselves very hard, “Is that a technical problem or is that a much broader problem?” In other words, can we say, “We from Canada are going to help you create your political parties”? We have to think long and hard about all the other elements required for that to happen.

Once there are political parties.... I also should say that probably assistance to political parties and political party formation is one of the biggest overall areas of investment if we add up what the George Soros Foundation is doing, what the German political party foundations are doing, what the National Endowment for Democracy is doing in terms of aiding political party development. There is quite a lot going on.

The question that lurks out there is should there be something with a Canadian flag on it saying here is Canada, here we are to help with political party development? This is an area that is extraordinarily difficult for a country as a bilateral to do, because it is surely a direct involvement in the polity of other countries. So how one goes about structuring that would have to be very, very carefully thought about. But more than that, it's what kind of environment needs to exist so it's possible for people to freely assemble, to think about these things together, to organize their financing, and to move things ahead. It's not a technical question, I would argue.

Jean-Louis has probably much more experience on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

It may be a question we'll have to come back to. We're out of time in that round for that one, and we have to make sure everyone gets a question.

Madam McDonough.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Pas de problème. Merci.

I want to zero in on two things briefly, and the time is very short.

There's been a lot of consternation expressed this week about cuts that have been announced in international youth internship programs. I'm interested to know whether IDRC and Rights and Democracy have such interns working through that program now.

Secondly, I'm wondering if you could comment on whether you have hired graduates from such internship programs, either those who have worked directly with your agency or organization or those who have had similar experiences elsewhere that have formed part of the résumé on the basis of which you've done that hiring. I wonder if you could comment on that.

Also, in your last round of comments there was a brief mention of a concern that I think exists. It's a question of balance; it's a question of sensitivity. It's the issue of whether development aid is going to be needs-based or whether there's a danger that aid can become tied to a political agenda of the donor nation. Is this something with which you have grappled in regard to your own decisions about what kinds of programs you've become directly involved in sponsoring or have chosen to become associated with in countries where there clearly is an agenda about advancing democracy?

Where do the trade-offs get made between the aid that very much addresses fundamental needs and any political agenda with which we may be associated? What do you see as the challenges and hazards in that?

[Jean-Louis Roy]

Mr. Chairman, allow me to add a comment in relation to the previous question on political parties. I have had the opportunity to observe certain aspects of Elections' Canada's work that, it has to be said, is indirectly linked to political parties. I am not going to speak on behalf of Jean-Pierre Kingsley, he is perfectly capable of doing so himself. Rights and Democracy has contact with political parties in countries such as Haiti, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Morocco, Egypt, and, in the past, Kenya. This allows us to explore specific questions related to human rights, minority rights and women's rights. Our initial approach to this very important subject was one of caution and tact. I agree with you, it is a highly sensitive matter.

Ms. McDonough, I am not sure if I am in a position to answer your question on the political agenda of the donor.

Can you just rephrase it for me? Maybe I should have used the translation, but I did not.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

I had two questions. One was around the international internship programs. The second was around the challenges in finding a balance between nations that are genuinely responding to the need for international development aid and having aid be associated with democracy promotion, democracy building, in a country--the risks and challenges of tying any such international development aid to the political agenda that is clearly evident in trying to support the development of democracy.

[Jean-Louis Roy]

I hope that I will be able to provide you with a satisfactory answer. I am sometimes very surprised by Canada's decision not to intervene in certain countries. Let us take the example of Africa. In the 1990s, in light of the global context, particularly what was happening in Europe, democracy began to surface in Africa. Although some countries have experienced setbacks, others have progressed to the next level of the democratic process.

Where was Canada when Benin reverted to democracy? We were not there and I have never understood why. What about Mauritania? Where is Canada? Mauritania is in the process of becoming a democracy, yet Canada is absent. That worries me. Any time that a society... Morocco is also moving towards democracy. Where is Canada when the citizens of a country, civil society and politicians alike, out of a common desire for democracy, create democratic institutions allowing debate to flourish? This ought to be an absolute priority.

At some other time, I would also like us to discuss Islam and China. Today, however, I would like to focus on the fact that democracy should be considered as a fundamental need for Latin America, Africa and some South Asian countries. We have all seen the polls on Latin America; what strikes me is that although the tangible benefits of democracy have been slow in coming, people's faith in it has not faltered. People need our help. They want democracy to continue to flourish in their countries even if it presents huge challenges on both social and economic fronts. Lastly, Ms. McDonough, we have interns.

We have those interns you referred to. We have eleven of them, I think, all over the world. We value this program highly. The young people are also of this opinion. They come from all parts of Canada, and we have them in institutions in all parts of the world.

We're sure that we will have a discussion with the government and that they will look at it again. It's a very significant program for young Canadians. More than 150 have been beneficiaries of this program. More than that, we have young Canadians in the UN Commission on Human Rights. We have others in the African Commission on Human and Peoples' Rights, and they are doing a tremendous job in institutions that are poor, some of them at least. They can provide a very significant amount to those institutions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Because we are out of time, I'm going to suggest that we do something. Mr. Martin and Mr. Goldring and a couple others have asked for a second round. Can I give Mr. Martin 30 to 45 seconds to quickly ask a question? Then we'll go to Mr. Goldring and anyone else who wants in on the second round, and then our panel can answer more succinctly.

Go ahead, Mr. Martin.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much for the consideration, Mr. Chair.

Madame O'Neil, Monsieur Roy, thank you for being here.

Democratic development is wonderful, but it isn't a guarantee, as we know, for sustainable development. I think corruption is a larger problem. Can you tell us, in your view, what type of framework we need to prosecute leaders who engage in the flagrant theft of the resources of their countries, like what's happening in Zimbabwe and Angola?

Secondly, do you think the Special Economic Measures Act should be rewritten, including having an obligation-to-report provision?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Mr. Goldring.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Monsieur Roy, you touched on some of your expertise in the area of promoting political party development, but then you made the comment that you're approaching it very cautiously. Could you explain why you would be approaching that significant factor in a cautious way?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Madame Bourgeois, did you have a very quick question?

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Roy spoke about how businesses can play a partnership role in the democratic process. I would like us to discuss globalization, China and economic partners in the context of democracy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madame Bourgeois.

I hope you're making note of some of these questions so we can refer to them.

Yes, Madame McDonough.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Just briefly, I wondered if I might ask Maureen O'Neil if she would address the two questions that were raised. Secondly, not for now but by way of follow-up, could you supply the committee with how many interns you now have with your respective organizations and in what kinds of settings, and how many you have hired--alumni or graduates of the internship program--as your respective staff?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you for those questions.

We'll have Monsieur Roy or Madame O'Neil.

[Maureen O'Neil]

I'll take a stab first at Keith's question and then at Madame McDonough's direct question about the interns.

On the question of corruption and the obligation to report, as we know from the Singapore meetings, the World Bank is taking a very strong stand on this question now. Quite surprisingly, some ministers--in fact, the Secretary of State for International Development from the U.K.--took some issue with that.

I should note that I mentioned one example where research, which IDRC is supporting, being done by researchers within their own countries has focused on this question. I mentioned the problem with corruption in the health system in Senegal, which in fact has resulted in some action.

We also supported the work of John Githongo, who had the responsibility in Kenya and was appointed by the government, in fact, to look at corrupt practices there. As you may know, having done his job well--and we supported the applied research that went along with some of his work--he was obliged to actually leave the country for some time because he had hit a rather sore spot. However, prosecutions are going on in Kenya now.

I agree that corruption is a big issue. Applied research can be extraordinarily helpful in outlining exactly what is at play.

[Jean-Louis Roy]

If you want to discuss corruption, I can start us off straightaway.

[Maureen O'Neil]

I wanted first of all to answer Ms. McDonough...

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes, but let Madam O'Neil respond about the internship.

[Maureen O'Neil]

We have not been big users of the intern program. I recall, though I will have to check and get the information for you, that some years ago in some of the work we were doing on new technologies, we had an intern working in our South African office. I will have to check on that. We have our own stagiare programs, particularly for people who are doing doctoral dissertations with us. So we haven't been a big user of that program.

On your second question, with reference to how do you do the trade-off, I guess I would ask if there is indeed a trade-off. I'm not sure there is a trade-off between the advancing democracy and dealing with particular needs in countries. In fact, as countries become more open and transparent, usually at the same time you see an increasing investment being made in health, in education, in those areas that are crucial for people to improve their lives.

On the question of political agenda, sometimes there are extremely important political agendas that involve all agencies of government. I would think a good example would be the questions posed about how is it that all Canadian agencies can work together to provide some kind of support for any kind of movement on improved situations in the Middle East. So IDRC has supported Canada in its role as gavel of the refugee working group that came out of the now almost forgotten Oslo peace process on the issue of refugees, and has supported a joint research by Syrians, Jordanians, Israelis, Lebanese. It sounds impossible to say that today, but indeed that work has been extremely useful. So yes, one can say that is a major political agenda.

One could also say that the work that has gone on in a country like Cuba some years ago, where IDRC supported really the first work that made it possible, gave opportunities to economists who had previously only been trained in Marxist economics to actually be trained in other than Marxist economics. One could say yes, at a very high level, one can say that's a political agenda. But really it is helping to connect them with the rest of the world.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Monsieur Roy.

[Jean-Louis Roy]

Monsieur Martin, thank you very much for your question about democracy, development, and corruption. I think you're right, corruption is such a huge phenomenon all over the world. It's not an African thing, it's not Latin American. We have seen what is going on in the United States and in Europe. We have a problem in the world.

However, I think that democracy is the only system that can at least at some point put the question of corruption on the agenda. Recently in Mali, as you know, we offered the Malian government to build an auditor general system like we have in this country, and they did that. When the Malian auditor general published his first report, it was huge news for a week in Mali, because it was revealing a lot of things. It was gossiping before that. There was a lot of extraordinary information for people there. We will not be able to do that in Zimbabwe. We can work to build institutions that will correct what has to be corrected in a country like Mali, but not in Zimbabwe.

I think we should also pay a lot of attention to the peer review in Africa. It's not a great system. It did not produce a lot of things; it's a new system. Well, that's a system that the Africans have developed by themselves. It's difficult to condemn the colleague who is the head of state, and blah, blah, blah, but recently the African Commission was quite clear in condemning Mugabe, the Mugabe regime, in very clear text and what it has produced for the Zimbabwe citizen.

We approach political parties cautiously. I ask Wayne MacKay to say to you why, and I'm sure he will talk about Egypt.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Very quickly, and then we have to suspend. We have other witnesses waiting.