Evidence of meeting #18 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was democratic.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Maureen O'Neil  President, International Development Research Centre
Jean-Louis Roy  President, Rights and Democracy (International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development)
Robert Miller  President and Chief Executive Officer, Parliamentary Centre
Jean-Marc Hamel  Member, Board of Directors, Parliamentary Centre
John Graham  President, Board of Directors, Canadian Foundation for the Americas

4:35 p.m.

Wayne MacKay

I'll be very brief.

I wanted to perhaps use Egypt as an example of the importance of caution. In the brief that Mr. Roy put forward, democracy can't be imported, it has to be fitted into a different context. Egypt is a very good example of that. During our week there we met with 30 different groups, from the Muslim Brotherhood to a host of different agencies, and everyone had different needs. Perhaps the most important point, and this often is the case, the level of free speech even in Mubarak's recent contested elections is not what we have in Canada.

One of the reasons for caution is you don't want people you've met with to pay the price in a regime after you've left. You may leave and not have to face any consequences, but they may. I think the level of free speech and the level of dissent is very different, and the tolerance of dissent is very different in different countries. So when you're talking about grassroots civil society parties you have to be very cautious. That would be one good example of why we do that.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

I do note that in your document you said we had to be very careful. I think over the next period of time we as committee members have to be cautious as well. Democratization is not westernization. Sometimes we have this concept of what democracy should be and should have to look like. Other parts of the world are pushing back from that. How we can gain some success without just having it as the western model is going to be a major challenge.

Thank you very much for coming.

We will suspend for a few moments and ask our other presenters to please take their places.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Order. We'll bring this meeting back to order.

I'm very pleased to have with us this afternoon, first of all, from the Parliamentary Centre, the president and CEO, Robert Miller.

Welcome.

4:40 p.m.

Robert Miller President and Chief Executive Officer, Parliamentary Centre

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Also from the Parliamentary Centre, we have Jean-Marc Hamel, a member of the board of directors. We're also very pleased to have, from the Canadian Foundation for the Americas, John W. Graham.

I am going to ask that you keep your presentations from eight to ten minutes. It gives the opportunity for more questions. We are going to time you and try to keep this meeting running.

Mr. Miller, would you like to begin? Thank you for appearing before our committee.

4:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Parliamentary Centre

Robert Miller

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Ladies and gentlemen of the committee, good afternoon.

The Canadian Constitution recognizes “peace, order and good government” as fundamental purposes of the state. It's now understood, if not universally accepted, by the international community that good government is a requirement and an essential element of sustainable development. Democracy--citizen voice in government and government accountability to citizens--is increasingly recognized as a global norm.

But democracy and good government do not happen automatically--far from it. They're the result of a long, hard, and frequently dangerous struggle by citizens over many years. Democratic development is the effort to assist that struggle through peaceful international cooperation. It follows that support for democratic development should be seen as a Canadian service to the world.

Some people believe that other countries do democratic development better than we do and that we should copy their approach. I believe that Canadians do this work as well as anybody in the world and that we should concentrate our attention on strengthening our own approach.

The Canadian approach has two key elements. First of all, over the last twenty years we have developed a strong family of institutions doing this work. In the early 1990s the Department of Foreign Affairs and ClDA began to fund programs in democratic development. Since then, that funding has grown substantially. Out of it has grown a strong family of Canadian institutions that specialize in delivering programs of assistance in many different areas. In our case, the Parliamentary Centre has specialized for the last fifteen years in a key area of democratic development, namely the strengthening of political institutions and processes in eastern Europe, the Middle East, Asia, Africa, and the Americas.

Secondly, we've developed over those years a distinct philosophy of cooperation. Canadians have a clear and distinct approach to cooperation that's appreciated by many of our partners. We support the efforts of people to strengthen their own democratic institutions; we don't attempt to export ours. We share our rich experience and ongoing struggles to reform and develop Canadian democracy, while acknowledging both our successes and our failures. We try to keep ideological baggage to a minimum, preferring results to rhetoric. Most importantly, we believe that democratic development should be practised democratically, between equals.

Democracy is a complex of institutions, practices, and values--I don't need to tell the people at this table that--that develop slowly. It follows that assistance to democratic development must go beyond the relatively short-term, project-by-project approach that has characterized international assistance in the past.

The Canadian government has begun to implement a new approach to strengthening results. Among initiatives that should be recognized and I would say encouraged by the committee is the formation of the Democracy Council, which brings the Department of Foreign Affairs and CIDA together with a family of so-called arm's-length organizations of which the Parliamentary Centre is one. And secondly, I think it is important for the committee to recognize and encourage the fact that CIDA has been taking steps to develop a more strategic, knowledge-based approach to democratic development, particularly as it relates to the broader objectives of Canadian official development assistance.

Additionally, we recommend that the government invest in building a network of Canadian centres of excellence in international democratic development. An initiative of this kind would invest in competitively selected Canadian organizations to strengthen their capacity to innovate, apply, and share knowledge in key areas of democratic development. In turn, it would enable Canada to play a stronger leadership role in this critical area of international relations.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, I want to emphasize the important role of this institution, the Parliament of Canada. Together with elections, parties, and civil society, parliaments are key institutions in democratic development. They are, or should be, institutional bridges between citizens and the state.

The Parliamentary Centre was founded in 1968 to help strengthen parliamentary democracy in Canada. Over the past fifteen years, we have evolved into a Canadian-based international organization, with staff and offices delivering programs in many parts of the world. Leadership in the centre comes increasingly from people like Bunleng Men, who heads our program in Cambodia, and Rasheed Draman, who is the director of our African program, based in our regional office in Accra, Ghana.

For more than a century, going back to the founding of the Inter-Parliamentary Union, the Parliament of Canada has participated actively in international organizations and programs intended to strengthen parliamentary democracy. Throughout the history of the centre, we have benefited greatly from the support and close cooperation we've received from the Parliament of Canada as well as from the provincial and territorial legislatures of Canada. This support adds enormous credibility, resources, and leverage to our work.

In the spirit of serving the cause of international democratic development, we believe it would be helpful for the Parliament of Canada to adopt a resolution affirming its commitment to international democratic development and pledging its continuing--and increased, if possible--support for programs of assistance in parliamentary development.

Thank you very much. I look forward to our discussion.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Miller.

Monsieur Hamel.

4:45 p.m.

Jean-Marc Hamel Member, Board of Directors, Parliamentary Centre

Mr. Chairman, I first would like to apologize for missing the very beginning; I was tied up.

I wish to express also our chairman's regret at not being able to be here this afternoon. Monsieur Robert Marleau, the former Clerk of the House of Commons and our current chairman, is out of the country. He has asked me to replace him today.

I have been a member of the Parliamentary Centre's Board of Directors since retiring from my position as Chief Electoral Officer of Canada.

I accepted the offer to become a member of the board because I believe that the mission and objectives of the Parliamentary Centre complement the work that Elections Canada continues to do around the world.

Since the early 80s, Elections Canada has been helping countries that are seeking to develop democratic institutions. We have helped them hold free and fair elections by training election officers and returning officers and helping to prepare electoral lists. We have even drafted electoral and other legislation. But that is as far as it goes. Once a government is elected, Elections Canada leaves it to its own devices.

This is where I see a role for the Parliamentary Centre. We are in a position to take over where Elections Canada left off and help elected members to work effectively within the context of a democratic legislative assembly—a situation that is new to most of them. Although this sort of support does not enjoy the same high profile as that provided for elections, it is, nonetheless, at least every bit as important.

I will not go into more detail. I know you'll have many questions, particularly for Mr. Miller, who has already presented.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for having us today.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Hamel. Pass on our hello to Monsieur Marleau.

Next we have the Canadian Foundation for the Americas. Mr. Graham, welcome.

October 2nd, 2006 / 4:50 p.m.

John Graham President, Board of Directors, Canadian Foundation for the Americas

Merci beaucoup.

I'm honoured to be here, although it does strike me that coming to a committee of the House of Commons to talk about democracy is a bit like telling Prince Edward Islanders how to grow potatoes. However, I understand that the emphasis is on democracy in other places and on the practical support that Canadians can provide.

A few years ago I summarized the hemispheric portion of my experience in an article entitled “Election Monitoring in the Americas--Benefit or Boondoggle?” The benefits far outweigh the boondoggle. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Since 1990, the year that Canada joined the Organization of American States, 19 of its 34 members have had one or more of their elections monitored by international observers. In this period, the OAS alone has conducted over 80 observations. Millions of dollars, a lot of that money Canadian, have been invested, and hundreds of Canadians have been involved. This is clearly a major undertaking. But has it done any good? Has it changed the course of democratic evolution in the Americas? If you compare the dictatorship-dominated political landscape of the Americas in the pre-eighties period with the present, the answer is that the investment has been amply rewarded.

Unfortunately, there has been slippage. Very troubling in Latin America is evidence that popular confidence in the democratic system is eroding. That has little to do with the electoral process and much to do with the failure of expectations engendered by the promotion of democracy in the eighties and the collapse of respect for political parties—a bad situation, as political parties are of course the indispensable machinery of democracies.

Canada, especially through parliamentary networking and through the OAS, can do more to help parties and parliaments rebuild. CIDA has good governance programs in many countries. They need to be applied to political systems, not just to bureaucracies.

The usual mandate of an observer mission is to assess whether an election can be endorsed as genuinely free and fair. The approval of international observers helps to establish legitimacy both internally and externally. For countries undergoing a transition from authoritarianism to the beginnings of a democratic system, the observer process has been critically important, and if accompanied by long-term technical assistance has been shown to play a decisive role in facilitating that transition. In countries where a democratic culture has been all but extinguished by dictatorship or has never matured, expert technical assistance must start from scratch to build reliable voter registration lists and all the other electoral infrastructure.

The most spectacular vindication of this process was the Nicaraguan election of 1990. Another was South Africa.

In Nicaragua, the Sandinista leader Daniel Ortega had agreed to invite observers, in the firm expectation that they would be endorsing a Sandinista victory. When it became apparent that he had lost, Ortega had second thoughts and was eventually persuaded to accept the victory of Violeta Chamorro through the diplomacy of Jimmy Carter and Venezuelan president Carlos Andrez Perez. However, these individual efforts would have been futile if the observers and the advance preparations had not delivered a highly credible verdict.

More groundbreaking occurred in the Dominican elections of 1994, when the OAS mission of which I was the leader blew the whistle on election manipulation that had deprived the opposition of victory. A similar pattern was followed when the OAS withdrew from President Fujimori's rigged elections in the 2000 elections in Peru.

Not all observations have moved the democratic process forward; however, the evidence demonstrates that advanced preparation and election monitoring have contributed significantly to embedding a democratic culture. What is less understood is that these successes could not have taken place without disciplined attention to the professionalism of the observers and of the technical experts.

For several years the OAS would not accept Canadian candidates for observer missions, because they had been selected by ministers, often without regard for qualifications.

The present system works because international missions have developed high credibility. Success has meant that traditional electoral observation in many countries is becoming obsolete. Of course the objective is just that: to make observation by foreigners obsolete. Hence the importance of supporting local civil society organizations.

As a caveat here, we already work with civil society, but too often it is the civil society of well-educated and well-heeled elites. We must connect more effectively below these levels.

In those countries where uncertainties, corruption, or instability still call for outside observation, the approach is being rethought. The focus should include counts of what is happening at polling stations on election day, but sharpen on pre-identified weak spots in the process, such as abusive government control of the media, election transport, computer fraud, election financing, intimidation, the lack of transparency in the registration, and the improper security of ballots.

The principal observer organizations are sending in teams months in advance to determine the tilt of the electoral playing field and to locate the major deficiencies. In places where a democratic culture has not taken hold or is tenuous, the role of a few long-term observers can be more important than the activities of large numbers of observers who spend only a week in the country.

A major challenge for observer organizations is to find resources up to a year ahead of time. CIDA has begun to provide funding for election missions on an annual basis, and this helps enormously with planning. There are lessons learned from our participation in the Ukraine elections of 2004—and Mr. Goldring is certainly an authority on that and on other election observations—and earlier this year in Palestine.

One lesson is the absolute necessity of maintaining the impartiality of the observers. It is a mistake to recruit observers who have strong links to one side in a political contest. In Ukraine, the government party, with active support from Russia, was looking for opportunities to discredit the western observer missions by pointing to partisan links and behaviour. Some observers in the Canada Corps observers mission came very close to falling into that trap. Evidence of partial observation could have been disastrous, as the reporting of the western observer missions was one of the critical factors that allowed a peaceful transition to take place.

Twice in the last two years, the Canadian government organized election missions that were exclusively Canadian. There is a temptation to look upon these missions as opportunities to burnish the Canadian image at home and abroad. We go down this road at our peril.

Election missions must have credibility built on a cumulative track record to enable them to endorse or repudiate an election process. National missions inevitably carry political baggage or are susceptible to political baggage that can compromise that credibility.

What would have happened to the mission in Palestine if The Globe and Mail or Le Soleil had published religiously insensitive cartoons while we were in Palestine? Multilateral missions are better insulated from this predicament.

Of course elections are only one part of the process; other parts deserve more attention than they traditionally receive. We have successfully exported our access-to-information model to Mexico. This is a vital tool of the democratic process. We should do more of this. But it has not helped that a succession of prime ministers have been messing up our own model. Our image in this area and its value overseas would be greatly improved if we could reverse the steady erosion by governments of the powers of the Office of the Information Commissioner.

Some of the most basic lessons learned are about sensitivity to cultural differences, but that was covered before and I will leave it.

To conclude, I have been moving across a large waterfront and have not addressed one of your key questions: Where is the greatest need for our support? It's a tough question. There's a lot that we've done that's useful and we still should do in the Balkans, eastern Europe, Africa, and Central Asia, such as help with party architecture, including finance rules; governance at the municipal level; transparency; access to information; and support for civil society organizations. These are generally not high-cost operations, but with our limited resources I believe we should be guided also by knowledge of where we have credibility and potential to make a difference.

Here I will expose a professional bias. The logical area is Latin America and the Caribbean—places like Haiti, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Ecuador, Jamaica, and Guyana—neighbours in our hemisphere.

Some of this we can do bilaterally, some by supporting the work of the President Carter Center on the Inter-American Democratic Charter. Much should be done through the Organization of American States. No regional organization outside western Europe has struck out so boldly for the values of democratic governance. The OAS should nudge the region toward better governance, greater accountability, and more attention to the horrors of drugs and human rights abuse. It needs more support to do its job as the bulwark of hemispheric democracy.

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, both groups, for your presentations.

Again, we will go into the first round of questioning.

Mr. Martin, you have five minutes.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thank you.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj is also going to ask a couple of questions at the end.

Thank you very much for being here.

Since I didn't get a chance to say this on the last round, in my 13-year experience with the Parliamentary Centre and with the IDRC, I believe that the taxpayer gets enormous value for money in what your organizations do. I have had a chance to see intimately what both of your groups do. I really think that we get a big bang for the buck, and I would just encourage you to keep doing what you're doing.

I have a follow-up on the last question that I had, and I'd like your opinion on this. I really think if we're looking at developing low-income countries, and we're looking at the gross and heinous abuses by leaders against their people—and there is a long litany that you know as well as I—I firmly believe that we need a legal framework on which to prosecute leaders who are engaging in the equivalent of economic genocide in their countries.

I want to take Angola as an example, because there is a narrow window of opportunity to work there just because of the oil surpluses that are there and the abject poverty that exists. So I would really be interested in your views on whether we need to work with other countries in order to develop a rules-based mechanism for prosecuting leaders who are engaged in the wholesale economic pillaging of their countries.

I have a second question. I just got off a plane from the U.S. a couple of hours ago. I believe that we really need to do a much better job of working with other countries at a governmental level and also at an NGO level—this is where I think your groups come into play—in terms of creating cross-border relationships that can develop a critical mass upon which one can affect public policy. I'm very interested in your views on the role you think Canada can play, and particularly organizations like both of yours, in terms of developing that cross-border critical mass to affect public policy.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

Mr. Miller.

5 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Parliamentary Centre

Robert Miller

Let me be brief: legal framework, yes, if legal framework is understood.

One of the key messages in our work in parliamentary development is that legal frameworks are not about passing laws. That's a part of it, but there are a great many laws on anti-corruption and on other issues in the countries where we work that have no effect. They aren't overseen and they aren't implemented effectively. So much of the work we do in the field of anti-corruption—and it is an area of concentration of the centre—is focused on the follow-up oversight work by parliamentarians to see to it that laws actually work, that they're put into effect, and that they result in prosecutions and some meaningful difference.

Secondly, the legal framework has to apply to the politicians themselves. One of the major problems with corruption in many of the countries where we work is the political process itself, the method of funding elections, and only latterly have we begun to address those issues successfully.

Working with other countries is very important. This has become a feature of much of our work. For example, we're undertaking a program of political party development in Sudan at the present time with International IDEA, which is an international organization based in Stockholm. We're going to cooperate with a U.S.-aid-funded program run by New York University in Haiti, to a degree that hasn't been the tradition in international parliamentary development.

So I think you're pointing to the future, and it's something that all of our organizations have to learn to do much better.

5:05 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Canadian Foundation for the Americas

John Graham

Very briefly, neither I nor my organization is an authority in the corruption area, but I would certainly point you to the work that is being done by Transparency International. The head of Transparency International in Canada is Wesley Cragg. They can address these issues much more usefully than I can.

One thing that Transparency International has done is develop an annual or a biannual humiliation index. All countries in the world are listed in order of the degree of their corruption. I think Canada has slipped a bit; we're now at number six. It's the sort of thing that, with publicity, can have some impact.

One of the great difficulties--and this came up in the discussion with the previous panels--is of course that in countries where corruption is most severe, it can be seen that western countries, western cultures, are trying to impose their values, and there is a resistance to that. So there should be as much effort as possible to develop and support homegrown resistance to cultures, and I think that's one of the things that Transparency International does.

On partnerships, we at FOCAL, the Canadian Foundation for the Americas, are very much in favour of the development of partnerships. We have very useful ones with a number of countries in Latin America and the Caribbean.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

We'll have to come back to you, Borys.

Madame Bourgeois.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question is for Mr. Miller.

Mr. Miller, in the section of your brief entitled “The Canadian Approach”, you argue that a strong family of institutions is essential for democratic development.

Since 1996, Canada has provided China with many services in support of democracy and human rights in general, for example, providing training for judges and lawyers. Canada has invested $265 million in democracy since 1998.

How can you explain the fact that, although Canada has invested so much over the best part of a decade, democracy has not yet been secured in China? China is an authoritarian country, not a democracy. How is it that 10 years on, and after having spent $265 million, we have not managed to shift the attitude of the Chinese government with regard to certain religious groups and countries, such as Tibet, that are being destroyed? Can you explain this to me?

5:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Parliamentary Centre

Robert Miller

I think the essential reason is because one key feature of the Chinese system has not been changed and will change only very slowly--that is, it's a one-party state.

The check on the behaviour of governments comes partly from what governments themselves learn, but it comes more from the knowledge that if they don't learn it, they'll be removed from power and somebody else will be put in power. Where that check doesn't exist, there's a real impediment to governments learning lessons.

There's no question in my mind that, in time, to address deeply some of the changes that are needed in China democratically will require the changing of the political system itself and the opening of that system to pluralism. That does not mean that nothing we've done over the last ten years with that investment has been valuable, because I think the effect of the exchange between Canada and China--the diversity of linkages that have taken place in the legal sector, the parliamentary sector, and in civil society--is beginning to make Chinese society a more complex society.

I can't describe to you how fundamental is the difference between the kinds of conversations I have with Chinese now and had ten years ago about the world out there and the kinds of changes that need to be made eventually for China to be a fully effective part of that world. But it is slow change, and the regime has made it very clear that the question of multi-party democracy is the last one they're prepared to discuss.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

You have a minute and a half left, Madame.

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

This reminds me of what Mr. Roy, the previous witness, said about the length of time for which international aid was provided. In the case of China, 10 years on, we are just starting to see results.

What would you think about a Canadian approach whereby we choose the countries in which we become involved? I say “choose” because, in light of financial and resource constraints, we obviously cannot be present in every country on the planet that needs support.

Should Canada not opt to provide aid to a restricted number of countries where it would be possible to forge longer-term links and partnerships? The question is for both witnesses.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Let's have a very quick answer, please.

5:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Parliamentary Centre

Robert Miller

Yes, I believe strongly that China should be among them, because we all have a huge stake in the transition to democracy in China being a successful one.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Graham.

5:10 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Canadian Foundation for the Americas

John Graham

As a very short answer, yes, I think the idea is a sensible one. If we disperse too widely, we don't have the resources to do the job, and I think that's what CIDA has been trying to do over the last year.

It's a difficult call. Does this mean we would withdraw the kind of support we provided—it's not very much, but some—for the elections in the Congo, which were a great success, and in other parts of the world that are not on our priority list? I think there has to be some sort of balance, but within that there should clearly be priorities established, so that we can provide the kind of intensity of work that shows a greater chance of producing the results you're looking for.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Graham.

Mr. Menzies, please; you have five minutes.